Yes, as mentioned above, make 2 from 1...

What would happen if a contributor e-mail me about a Bugatti fraud with names, dates and fake chassis numbers. And let's say I then turn this into a post on this forum, thereby naming and shaming the culprits. They can try and sue me, but I'm quite poor(ish), so they won't get a lot of money from me. Would Herman be safe from litigation?

I shall, of course, protect the identity of the person who provides me with such information with my life. What do you think? Bugattibuilder.com - The Forum where Scoundrels are Shamed in Public. No really, what do you think?

Johan

Johan, what are your intentions and your motivation for that?
This whole area is not black-white, it has all shades of grey.
Full black is rather rare, and if it exists then it is disguised as grey. Real fraud you never will be able to prove.

And by the way, what is fraud? You have to divide it in morally and juridical explanation. I give you an example.

Somebody buys the PurSang replica #4938 which was offered on eBay, and registers it based on the Argentinian title delivered with the car. He now has a clean title for a 1928 T35B. Some years later he sells the car exactly with these data. Would this be fraud? Legally not. And morally? Yes, but only under the condition that the seller knows that the car is not genuine.

What if the seller adds a full racing log of the real #4938 to his advertisement? Fraud? Legally most probably not, because nobody can prove that the seller knows that he is owning a replica. And morally...?

Grand Prix Bugattis are sold between € 120.000 for a clear PurSang replica and € 3 million for a fully proven original car with history like #4914. Everything in between is related to the type, the history, the condition, and last but not least to the grade of originality. It's like buying a house, you will get what you will be able or willing to pay for. If you buy an old villa for a bargain you know that you first have to call a construction company and not a removal service. And if you pay a hell of a lot money for such a house you always will hire before an experienced construction engineer or architect in order to get the object checked from cellar to roof.
And with Bugattis it's the same. Sure, there are cars around with a faultless and documented history, and known by the community since decades. A single phonecall to the right person can confirm this. But for other cars the verification and taxation process may be more complicated and difficult. But not impossible.

Allow me to explain: During the late 1990's Ken Lawrence (An American) tried to sell an Aston Martin DP 214 through Christies (I think) The auction house in question asked long time Aston owner Ted Cutting to investigate.

Mr Lawrence claimed that he found the remains in a scrapyard in Europe in 1979 even though this car was involved in a very serious racing accident which killed the driver, Brian Hatreed. His widow ordered the car scrapped and Aston Martin personel confirmed that this was done.

Upon closer investigation it was discovered that Ken Lawrence's fake was based on an ordinary DB4 fitted with a body resembling that of DP214. Built by Coachcraft, it looked fairly accurate. Of course Lawrence provided a veritable mountain of paperwork to assist in his unsuccessfull attempt to profit from the tragedy of others. The auction house refused to sell the car as a restored original and suggested it be sold as a recreation.

This was not acceptable to Lawrence and the next thing all the classic car magazines was mentioning the name of Ken Lawrence and his vile greed.

It is now November 2007 and I still remember, and shall allways remember Ken Lawrence for being an utterly contemptible human being.

That is what motivates me Michael; I want the names of those who cheat. Especially those who would whore out Bugatti. They who took a complete Bugatti, divided it into 3 or 4 heaps of parts, assembled 3 or 4 "original restored Bugattis" and sold them on as such. I care not a jot for some witless IT billionare losing his shirt over a fake Bugatti; I care for those of us expected to stay silent while the rich and unscrupulous destroy something of great importance.

"Nothing is too beautifull; nothing is too expensive." Ettore Bugatti

I cannot prevent those intent on fraud from commiting acts devoid of morality and decency, but I sure as hell will not be silenced. If I know and stay silent, I am complicit. For evil to triumph, all good men have to do is nothing.

Yours
Johan Buchner

I guess it is a good idea to at least visualise the double chassis numbers, and find out the reason for that. I will make an entry in the chassis number database on the wiki, where contributors can keep track of double, triple and even the odd quadruple chassis number entries.

Information I think is the key to prevent con-artists to perform their art.

information is always welcome!

http://wiki.bugattibuilder.com/index.php?title=Double_chassis_numbers&rcid=6786

And don't forget to keep this discussion going....

_________________
Vive la Marque !!

Johan, I fully understand that you are upset.

I am in the classic car scene since the 70's, at a time where we had been considered simply as strange idiots, having fun working on old cars and driving them around. Where "old cars" then had been prewar cars only.

Since 10 years or so I keep myself busy with researching motorsport history, in general, but also always picking out some special topics. The first one had been the early Ferraris from 1947/48 plus the Colombo-engined singleseaters from 1948 to 1950/51. Another one was the Maserati 8CM, and the BMW 328 racing models 1938-40 plus the very first BMW-engined Veritas cars, and now I'm getting crazy and have started to dive into the T35 GP cars.

To make it short - it is surprising how much bullshit has been written over decades even from respected and well-known specialists and authors! And not only since the hype end of the 80's but in some cases already in the 60's, where old racing cars had been traded for virtually apples and eggs. Bullshit? Not really, because behind much of such "stories" a clear reason could be seen. Buy a car and build the history around it! Or even worse - build the car AND the history!

This is all "Big Business", and the global scene is supporting it more often as one could believe. I refuse to disclose details, because this is a public forum! And because it is more than enough to write a full-size book about it...

Basically I consider myself as (leisure) historian, but in my library one will also find books about international law. They are valuable...! You are not allowed to state publicly that a certain car is a fake, because the owner may sue you for loss on property - and other things. So the only way is to reasearch and accumulate facts and figures, and put them on table in a legally correct and acceptable form. And still you are squeezable...!

A blackboard with "fakers" and "cheaters" is not workable, it will get a boomerang with a power of a SS20 rocket. Knowing is one thing, but proving something else! Believe me, I know what I'm talking about....

Sometimes there are good reasons for multiple chassis numbers.

In the link above I added chassis number 57103, which was a number used by the Bugatti factory to easily ship Bugattis cross border. For as far as I can see, at least 3, but perhaps more cars have had chassis number 57103.

At least these chassis numbers can be cleared. Let's see what this list brings us. Anyone can update the list with info they have available, so I do not worry too much about it. Besides, most info is already available in the WIKI, it just needs to be made accessable.

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Vive la Marque !!

I find your posts utterly fascinating Michael; you are so right, little is black and white, a lot more are shades of grey. I also believe the vast majority who owns Bugattis (or any other marque) are simply enthusiasts wanting to enjoy their cars. I also do not believe many owners are deliberately dishonest about their car's history. Quite the contrary: "Is this the one who won Le Mans?" asked a spectator; "Well, quite a lot of it did" replied the owner. Classic answer!

I think the problem lies with those who are not motoring enthusiasts, but are instead motivated by ill gotten gains. I am not talking about dealers in old cars; the majority of them are as enthusiastic about cars as those who restore them for a living. It is the few who are crooks that scare me. I do not know what harm they can do.

On the bright side, there now exists an entire internet community devoted to Bugatti (Note to the Dutch - RESPEK!) And on a more personal note, I belong to this community now and a glorious thing it is too.

A final thought: what we write here is permanent. This conversation will change and grow and the whole story is there for anyone who wishes to read it. Life is good.

Kind Regards
Johan

I have a different approach to dealing with fraud than some of my fellow board members. Maybe it's just because of the way I grew up (in a boys home). I make sure everything I buy is what it is supposed to be. Often, this means being downright nasty in my insistance that the seller prove to me that he is telling the truth. If he can't or won't, I simply will not buy it.

When a guy starts getting stupid, I lose interest. Amazing how stupid a seller can get too. All of a sudden the guy who presented himself as knowledgeable doesn't know anything about what he has! The stink test! If a guy is caught being untruthful in any aspect of the item, I assume he is untruthful about everything. I also refuse to deal with people who use tired old lines like, "I'm selling it for a friend", or "the previous owner told me" - both methods of avoiding any responsibility for knowledge of what is being sold.

Generally speaking, the people who are successful enough to be able to afford to buy Bugatti's today didn't get to be that successful by being stupid. That's why the T-35B advertised on Ebay as a "3 out of 5 original" didn't sell. A guy who can spring for $350.000 is usualluy a bit more savvy han that. That certainly isn't always the case but usually it is.

On the other hand, I think the Type 35 replica that was advertised on Ebay is worth a considerable amount of money if simply sold as what it actually is. I also think it would be an excellent investment over time. My personal view is that pretending the car is something it is not is actually forcing a sale price lower than it would be if presented honestly.

The first auction ended at $ 160.000, the 2nd at $ 155.000. Both way below the reserve which I expect somewhat lower than the "Buy it now" price of $ 350.000.
Both high bids represent the actual market price for a new PurSang replica and therefore are reasonable. If that's not enough for the seller, okay, his decision.

Indeed.

I asked Pur Sang a couple of years ago, what the price was for a Type 35, with fenders and 2 spare wheels mounted.
This was 125.000 dollars.

Next comes shipping (roughly 5000 $ all expenses paid, to anywhere in the world (USA should be cheaper).

Devaluation taken in account, 150-160.000 is a reasonable price for a Pur Sang.

A type 55 was 250.000 by the way...

Investigate what you are buying. At least with that kind of money involved...

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Vive la Marque !!

I have a question: If 150 000 - 160 000 dollars buys one a Pur Sang replica, what (if any) genuine Bugatti's are available for the price?

Actually I have another one: What would you rather have; an original, non-racing tourer or a replica T35? Me? I'll have an ugly T40 please.

Johan

150.000 dollars might buy you a battered type 13, 22 or similar. If you are lucky.... Or a type 52, but it is hard to squeeze in...

Here's one to upset you, Johan:

http://www.prewarcar.com/show_prewar_car.asp?car_id=48012

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Vive la Marque !!

Yes Herman, upset is one way of putting it. But keep in mind that I am one of those people who believe the carefull recommissioning and restoration of a T40 to its original specification is doing the Lord's work. Faking a T37 is, of course, aiding and abetting the Opposition.

Now you Good People will have to excuse me; I cannot weep and post at the same time.

Kind Regards
Johan

I had another look at the ad for the T40 and it got me thinking about cost. Specifically: To restore a complete (no coachwork, it would seem) but dissasembled T40 - How much?
To use same complete set of components to build a T37 - How much?

Some more questions: What would the difference in (resale) value be? A restored T40 has a T40 chassis number, right? What chassis number a T37 built from T40 components?

And finally: Upon aquiring the above T40, what, in the opinion of the contributors to this forum, would be the "right" thing to do? I choose to interpret "right" as decent and morally responsible, but it is not my money that will be used.

What do you think?

Johan