A great find, very interesting!

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Vive la Marque !!

What I can tell you Johan is that the prototype chassis and the Coupe Napoleon chassis are two completely different physical entities. The Napoleon chassis number is 100 (not 41100, just 100), which logic tells us must be the number for the prototype car also. It is well known how Bugatti "mixed things up a little" with chassis numbers, engine numbers and registration plates on T57's and the like and he certainly did this with his 3293-J4 number plate that went from the crashed Weymann to the Kellner, and then onto the Napoleon when it was built.
The Prototype chassis was a work in progress and the Napoleon chassis is the final resolved product like the other five cars. They are two separate vehicles that share the same number. Nothing more.

This means there were 7 Royales built doesn't it? I would like to hear your thoughts on the fate of the prototype's frame, engine and coachwork. Always difficult to tell from old photos but the Weyman car do not appear to be a write-off, a very heavy front-offset impact yes, but it appears the front axle assembly took the brunt of it leaving the chassis (relatively) unharmed, at least so it appears to me. Greg if your assertion that the prototype and the Coupe Napoleon are two entirely seperate cars is correct it does beg the question : What happened to the prototype?

On a not entirely unrelated subject ; rumours abound about what appears to be a genuine T41 chassis.

As always - thanks
Johan

The prototype's chassis did survive, as announced on my site.

I since received comments from 3 different people, that the prototype chassis does in fact exist, along with some other original parts. It seems to be true that it was in use as a farm chart (For pigs one does not need too many space, but how about hay?), and that it later went to the USA, where it was lingering for decades, now it is back in Europe.

Apparently the original engine is not with the chassis, also the body is not present.

Why this notice did not attract more attention? Maybe because it is not the complete car, but only the chassis (frame). Maybe because there are no photographs?

For me, the mere fact that 7 Royales were built, and that the Coupe Napoleon is NOT a rebuild of the prototype, is sufficient excitement. Even if the prototype's chassis would not exist anymore!

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Jaap wrote : "For me, the mere fact that 7 Royales were built, and that the Coupe Napoleon is NOT a rebuild of the prototype, is sufficient excitement."

You're right, this is exciting news. To think even a Type as well known and as well-researched as the Royale still has so much mystery about it - the number 41141 on the engine mount of the Coupe Napoleon for instance - now that intrigues me. What do you guys make of it?

Cheers
Johan

Apparently the prototype IS being restored with an early twin ignition motor with the plugs on either side of the block.The owner has increased speculation by not wishing to publish photos before HE is ready to do so.However if some kind american detective were to track down a mechanic who had worked for Hurrah at his museum there must surely be photos of the chassis in america.... Did not the American club photograph this chassis? I remember my amazement when a well known member of the Bugatti club in england showed me photos that he took of the Schlumpf Esders Royale being assembled AT THE Bugatti FACTORY in the early 1960's I could not believe that this very significant fact had never got into any of the Bugatti tomes as it changes completely the story of that car. If the factory built it to a customer order then it is real and not just something done by the Schlumpf's.Notwithstanding the fact that it out of period. Interesting that Greg did not deny having SEEN the prototype chassis.....here is a nice water pump to brighten your day !

I've only ever seen one photo of the Schlumpf Esders Replica taken during construction (actually the photo was taken when the workers occupied the collection) and the wing-line was poorly executed.

As to the chassis and engine they used all I've ever heard is that the engine was an ex-railcar engine (not confirmed). I have seen no evidence to disprove this chassis was made in the Bugatti factory. Did they in fact build another (8th?) Royale for Schlumpf?

Could somebody more technically minded than myself please provide a link to Jaap Bugatti Page? Both the news item and the Revue article please - it all makes for some very compelling reading.

Weird, until a few days a go I believed this chassis was made in the US during the 1950s.

With much Gratitude
Johan

PS. The water-pump is a work of art - thanks for sharing.

the water pump is original.The owner threatened to use it to pump wine up from the cellar.The two chassis made for schlumpf were ordered by the works from the constructor.The second is now with Mr Mulin [ your friend Johan ] with an engine.I don't know what he will do with them,probably make a nice coupe Napoleon.

PS. The water-pump is a work of art - thanks for sharing.[/quote]
the water pump is original.The owner threatened to use it to pump wine up from the cellar.The two chassis made for schlumpf were ordered by the works from the constructor.The second is now with Mr Mulin [ your friend Johan ] with an engine.I don't know what he will do with them,probably make a nice coupe Napoleon.[/quote]
here are some other Royale related items,the second schlumpf chassis and Uwe Huckes roadster.PS the "small" chassis on top of the Royale is an extended T46 frame !! now being built up by Robin Townsend in the UK.

My opinions offend, I shall offer no conjecture as to what he will do with his Royale.

Now wait Jean, Schlumpf ordered two chassis? And both were ordered by the factory from the contractor responsible for the original batch of T41 chassis? How did the Bugatti factory deliver them to Schlumpf ; as chassis frames only or fully built up T41s sans coachwork? The chassis on which the Esders Replica was built is one of them right? I've read somewhere that when Paul Braque (sorry for the spelling) was brought in to oversee the completion of this car they decided to start over - I always assumed they were talking only about the coachwork, can you confirm?

To get back to the prototype chassis, I hope the Weymann body is recreated, I think it's a very elegant motor car.

Johan

the water pump is original.The owner threatened to use it to pump wine up from the cellar.The two chassis made for schlumpf were ordered by the works from the constructor.The second is now with Mr Mulin [ your friend Johan ] with an engine.I don't know what he will do with them,probably make a nice coupe Napoleon.[/quote]
here are some other Royale related items,the second schlumpf chassis and Uwe Huckes roadster.PS the "small" chassis on top of the Royale is an extended T46 frame !! now being built up by Robin Townsend in the UK.[/quote]
This engine seems to have a most peculiar carburettor and intake set-up, not seen on any other Royale engines, not on AutoRail engines either. Anybody knows where this design comes from?

News on my site about the Royale is on: http://www.bugattipage.com/#News (scroll down a little).

The Bugatti Revue article: http://www.bugattirevue.com/revue41/henry.htm

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here are some other Royale related items,the second schlumpf chassis and Uwe Huckes roadster.PS the "small" chassis on top of the Royale is an extended T46 frame !! now being built up by Robin Townsend in the UK.[/quote]
This engine seems to have a most peculiar carburettor and intake set-up, not seen on any other Royale engines, not on AutoRail engines either. Anybody knows where this design comes from?

News on my site about the Royale is on: http://www.bugattipage.com/#News (scroll down a little).

The Bugatti Revue article: http://www.bugattirevue.com/revue41/henry.htm[/quote]
I suspect that Uwe took on board what Chayne had said about the likely damage to bores with the original setup and made his own.Which makes me wonder what Chayne did with the original manifold and carbs....

All the bits that Chayne removed from 41121 when he carried out his "improvements" in the late 40's went with the car when he donated it to the Ford museum. I asked the guy looking after the car when it was at Goodwood what happened to these pieces and he said they were stolen in the 1970's.
Uwe Huckes car was a strange thing. He told me that Bugatti intended to make a sports version of the Royale and because he had a railcar engine sitting on a shelf for years and Wheatcroft was remaking one he got a set of parts from him and cut down and drilled out a Gino Hoskins frame. Onto that he mounted a kind of T50 Le Mans body. I had a ride around his estate in it and I have to say it had plenty of performance.
As to the carb set up, I have no idea.

I really love this thread on the “new” Royales.

With regard to the Esders recreation:

It seems that Alsthom built two Royale frames for the Schlumpfs, being these frames slightly different from the original chassis; more information here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1979&p=16017&hilit=alsthom#p16017

The mechanical parts for that recreation were original spare parts provided by the factory; although the engine itself was an autorail engine owned by the Schlumpfs.

I had read that the factory refused to fit these parts and the engine to the frame to finish a new complete car; but the new information provided by Lazarus (who usually is right) denies that previous affirmation.

I had also read that when Paul Bracq took the project to finish the car not only the body was poorly made, but there were also problems with the gearbox (it was necessary to build a new one) and other parts like the pedals of the car, which were not original parts.

My personal opinion is that this car can be considered as a genuine Bugatti Royale; many other restored cars keep less original parts than this one.


With regard to the prototype chassis:

Of course, it is a sensational piece of news to know that the prototype chassis has survived and it is the first of seven Royales finished by the factory. But I think that it will be a titanic task to try to finish this car. The owner has the chassis and an engine, but many other parts are necessary to finish the car, being highly unavailable those parts. About the body, I of course agree with Johan. The Weymann body would be the propper choice for this car; but it would also be really difficult to build it without the original plans, although other Weymann bodies could be used as a model. Do we really know that the owner aims to finish a complete car? Maybe he only wishes to finish a chassis with its engine as much as possible.

About the vanished engine of the prototype: Could this engine be somewhere at the Mulhouse museum?

With regard to the Mullin chassis, the second new chassis built by Alsthom in the sixties, coming from the Malmerspach collection:

There will be exactly the same problems to finish this car than with the prototype chassis; perhaps only with the assistance of the people involved in the building of Wheatcroft´s Royale (Ashton Keynes Vintage Restorations), new sets of parts could be available to finish these projects.

By the way, did Peter Mullin buy also the T57 chassis lying on the Royale chassis? Will he rebuild a new T57? If he already owns the Williamson´s Atlantic, he will not need to fit a new Atlantic replica on that chassis.

With regard to the Wheatcroft´s Royale:

If this car was built following exactly the original specifications having a genuine Royale as a model, except for some very minor changes to make it more useable, I think that it could be considered as a real Bugatti; or at least as a faithful recreation. Replicas are not as close to the original as this car.

And finally, with regard to the Hucke´s sports Royale:

I do not consider this car as a Royale, although it is a very interesting and not usual car. It only has an autorail engine, it does not have either a chassis or a general design based on any of the genuine Royales. I cannot guess what Robin Townsend can be doing to improve this car, as it is a designed as a very basic sports car. A new open body closer to the lines of the T43, perhaps?

I was forgetting the chassis at Lithuania… Original or not, it would be simply useful if it is the basis to build faithfully a new Royale using one of the first 25 engines which were initially built to be fitted in cars but finally ended powering an autorail. Almost 200 autorail engines were built; many of them must have survived. Very few projects to build a new Royale have been successful because of the unavailability of parts; if someone manages to finish a complete car, even if it is using a “Lithuanian” chassis, that would be great news.

Photoshop is an amazing tool.