Thank you for your answers, but I realy don't know, what's the Problem with Bugattipeople.
For my Information, if you have a Chevron, Lola T 70, or even a Ford GT 40 Continuation Car, you are able to race in some historic events. I've heard of a Bentley 4.5-litre LM Recreation, which drove the Mille Miglia, 95 % of the Mercedes Benz SSK's are fakes. If you go to Kienle, in Germany, he can built you a new 300 SL.
Bugattis were replicated, since the 50th, cause in England they used them for Clubsport Events, how many cars were splitted up, building two or three cars of one. What is the difference between a PS Replica, or a Crosswaite & Gardner Car. Is a Replica more Bugatti, which is build around a crankcase?
If you'll spent a day in front of Anandons, or ASA's Place in Argentina, you will be astonished, how many European dealers are running in and out, ordering Recreations and selling them later as 'Originals'. Even sueing peoples, by law, who are telling, they are selling Recreations.

I think, that real cars should be preserved as our cultural heritage, but we are talking only of few cars. Put an R suffix behind Recreations, or use Continuation Numbers, to separate them from the real stuff, cause many owners are not claiming something real, but there is no chance to legalice the car for the road.
Imagine, if only 100 % real cars could do historic events, they will end up in big collections, and nobody will see them again and most people will forget about them, like it happened to other makes, where are no Recreations, like the Rolland-Pilain A 22.
Who is doing better, Miles Collier, with a splendid collection of rare cars, hidden in a non public warehouse, or David Piper, with many doubtful cars, showing and driving them around the world.

Regards
Jörg

Once a year Mr. David Piper brings a selection of his cars to South Africa , and not only does he race them very hard indeed, but he is also an absolute gentleman.

The world can do with a few more like him.

Johan

Hi Johan,

same did Mr. Rodney Felton, but none of his cars, ever saw the Portello Work.
After he died, his cars were sold by dealers as the real stuff.

Peter Kauss did recreate some cars, Louwman-Bonham's are trying to sell them as 'Real'.
It seems to me, that in modern times, it's accepted to be a crook, or how could you explain that so many known Collectors, are involved with this.

Regards
Jörg

You have to define the word "collector". There are a lot collectors around who simply collect investment, like others "collecting" shares or stocks. And in this world only one thing counts - money!

Could you please be more specific about which car you think was tried to be sold as real by Bonhams?
Bugwrench

I am not familiar with the ASA operation or with Mr. Krausse - could we have more details.

A question for someone in the UK. Does the "R" after cars listed in the UK BOC register stand for "Replica", "Recreation" or just "Rubbish".

Does anyone know why the club has stopped using this designation in the latest edition of their club magazine.

Does anyone know what the BC on the chassis plates issued by the UK BOC stand for ?

Does anyone know whether anyone at the Bugatti Trust ever looks at this website.

The Alfa Tipo 33 Collection, most are built up by Erwin Derichs in Mayen, Germany. Kidstone found their history and is assuming chassisnumbers.

Look, I don't say, they are fakes, but Kauss bought Spares and ordered to build the complete T 33 collection. Some Parts are Real, or they made from 4 Cars, maybe 8 Cars, by cloning
Personaly, I'm happy for their existance, but you have to take a good look, if you want to buy one. I've heard a lot of Rumours, about the honesty of the Selling part, claiming cars are sold, when it was not true, Kidston, ex Director of Bonhams, trying to push the Prices up in Auctions, etc.
For some Reason, Christies closed their Car Department, cause the Market is nearly dead. You need years and a lot of patience, for selling expensive Cars. Strange is, that Real and Rare Cars, hardly sell, but Recreations, build up Cars and none Period modifications, are setting Records and you see them again and again...in the US, in France, in Germany, in England... and you see allways the same names, behind the Cars, or the Bubble.

Regards
Jörg

ASA is the Shop of Nestor Salerno, an ex Racing Driver. He startet doing Replicas of Alfa Romeo, Maserati, Ferrari etc, look for his web page, I think ASA Argentina and you will find the origins of many Alfa Romeo 1900 Conrero Barchettas, for sale, by two belgian dealers, same with some Maseratis Racing Cars.
Anandon is doing every kind of car, that you want. I have pictures of Abarths, Cisitalia, Delage, Delahaye, Ferraris, Hispano Suizas. He has good Connections to England, Switzerland and Spain. I think, if I tell everything I know, I will be end very poor, or in Jail.
So lets stop here.

Regards
Jörg

Hi,

An answer to a previous query by Legaleagle.

Reply to his question from someone who knows. I am not at liberty to disclose the author, as the person does not want to get involved to any greater extent than answering the questions. Also, this is as far as it goes, as I have not got the time and neither has the person to go back and forth with questions and answers.

* = text removed by SB to maintain author anonimity.

1. R stands for replica
2. It is wrong not to include R designation but unfortunately a
number of ******* have connived in confusing and bullying **** ******** *** ******* at best and been downright dishonest at worst. ** *** *** (Now) stamping the chassis plates with an R but have no control over the issue of free lance replica chassis plates by people ** ***** ****!!
3. BC stands for Bugatti Club


Source: Bugantics Volume 70/2_ 2007

"THE B.O.C. REGISTER
An update by John Venables-Liewelyn
The current status of the Bugatti Owners' Club register has been questioned by a number of people recently
because of the proliferation of replicas of variable quality. The British Driver and Vehicle Licensing Authority
(DVLA) have also recently expressed concern that vehicles built from entirely new parts are obtaining agerelated
road registration numbers. In view of this concern, and the retirement of our esteemed Registrar Terry
Cardy, I have set up a Registration Sub-Committee of the Bugatti Affairs Committee to re-examine the whole
question and support our new Registrar Mark Morris.
This sub-committee has met twice and I summarise its conclusions here.
1. It was noted that the purpose of the Register is to record the factual history of cars purporting
to conform to Bugatti design for posterity and general interest only. Inclusion of a car in the Register does NOT
confer or imply approval, nor is it intended to be a guide to potential purchasers.
2. B.O.C. chassis numbers and plates were originally issued to cars which had either lost the
originals or been built up from Molsheim-manufactured parts. The DVLA in 1987 authorised our Registrar to
give an identity to such cars and accepted this identity when asked to issue a road registration number, but have
not applied a wholly consistent policy over the years. It was agreed that this scheme should continue as before,
with some modifications to suit the current climate. As soon as application is made for a place on our Register, a
number will be assigned for administrative purposes and the maker's number recorded if available. Chassis
plates will only be issued after consideration of each individual machine by the sub-committee, and any letter
written in connection with an application to the DVLA for road registration will include a copy of the owner’s
statement of the origin of the parts. Replicas will be given a number ending in "R". Plates will be engraved with
the date of issue on the reverse, but, bearing in mind the fact that exact copies of Molsheim plates are easy to
obtain, will closely resemble the originals. Plates are for identification purposes only and are not a badge of
approval.
3. The purpose of the BOC is to encourage "the sport and pastime of motoring with Bugatti and
other cars": we have no desire to exclude anyone. Replica Bugattis are welcome at social events and Prescott,
and will be invited to speed events such as the Williams Trophy, when the organisers permit, if judged to be
"in the spirit of Molsheim"."


"The DVLA is now on the ball and will not allow replicas it knows about but can't stop fraudulent cars coming into UK from France, which is where most cars from Argentine enter Europe." SB explanation - EU imports are registered here with the minimal amount of checking, as it is assumed that all states are as riqorous as the UK with initial registration......................

That I am now more confused than ever, does not bother me much. I have always assumed that there exists a small group of leading lights within the Bugatti movement who knows exactly which cars are original, which are bitsas and which are recreations.

Stuart's comprehensive report would seem to indicate that even the most knowledgeable Bugatti researchers are a little confused too. Kinda scary innit?

Needless to say, I can offer no solution. Anyone?

Kind Regards
Johan Buchner

Well, there's only one way of being 100% sure. You buy a new Veyron, I suppose that those are original.

Or are those replica's, using Volkswagen parts

_________________
www.BugattiPage.com
www.BugattiRevue.com
www.BugattiAircraft.com

This one is:



The pipe in the large exhaust is the exhaust pipe of the 1285cc Beetle engine...

_________________
Vive la Marque !!

Hi Johan,

Bugattis are the most faked historic Cars, for this, they were cheaper, than contempory Cars, from the same level. I think the Bugatti Trust is doing a good job, but there is no Delage, Talbot, Delahaye, Maserati, or Alfa Romeo Trust and their cars are more original. Black Sheeps are everywhere and today you can earn a lot of money.
If someone rich, or 'important' will change the identity of a fake Car, to Original, he will do, without any trouble.
I'm shure, that most 'Real' Cars, are not very original.

Regards
Jörg