Hi,

Just a quickie to say I am not sulking, but need some time to check drawings so I can give a reasoned and accurate reply - will try for tomorrow, but within a week for certain!

Thanks once again for your input Bugwrench.

SB

The error in your drawing is similar to the one in the crankcase with the extra boss in the front face. Do not use a postwar drawing when you need exact details of an early T35 as you will introduce all later modifications.
In this case the "Graisseur Stauffer" is an extreme case as the original drawing for lower part 29/30MOT118 shows a very elegant piece with a 13mm hex just above the M9 thread. Nobody will ever understand why Molsheim redid this drawing postwar (for the 101?) with an about 24mm hex. BTW, I have never actually seen this ugly late version fitted on any Bugatti.

Response:
1) The lower part is the drawing you have stated, being 29 30 MOT 118 dated 11/07/24.
2) No parts contained within the water pump assembly I have pictured date from later than 1925.
3) 29 30 MOT 118 has a 9mm pas 1.25 thread, but the drawing shows a 13mm diameter and not a 13mm hex. The hex is 28mm.
4) Picture to explain:



I also have never seen a pump spindle end with a screw driver slot and I would appreciate the drawing number although I am 99% certain it is a mistake.

Response:
1) The drawing number is 22 23 MOT 2175 and is dated 03/07/1923. Have checked and it does contain a screw driver slot..

I have to make another correction: The hex size is not 24 but 26 mm.
The date of the drawing of the ugly part that SB used for his project is most probably 8 march 1948. This is 6.5 month after Ettore's death. That might explain the not very elegant shape. He did not have control anymore.

Response:
1) Please refer to answer above. It is not a 1948 drawing and the hex is not 24mm or 26mm.

Thank you for all your help, this kind of discussion is essential in getting the project as accurate as possible.

Regards


SB

Forgot - the error I mentioned is shown below. I have been told that the production pump body did not have this feature.



Regards


SB

The T37/40 waterpump DOES have this feature. That probably is the reason why I did not notice it as an error on the T35 pump picture. (this is meant as a bad excuse!)
BTW is the pump you show bronze or alloy? I guess bronze as the date of the drawing for the alloy pump (35MOT579) is post 1925 (5.7.26).

The 29/30MOT118 drawing keeps bothering me as the Trust when asked supplies the 1948 drawing with that number. That is why I was so sure your drawing was postwar. The 28mm hex you mention certainly does not fit my view on Bugatti design elegance. And why would you need a 28mm hex to tighten a M9 thread in alloy or bronze!
May I suggest you change your drawing to show the elegant version that is known to have been fitted to early T35s?
Regards, Bugwrench

The Type22/23 (Brescia) parts catalogue, of which reprints exist, does list 29/30 Mot 118 on page 5 and has an illustration on page 7. The illustration shows the the lower part of the "Graisseur Stauffer" with a 13mm hex just above the M9 thread. I would love to attach a scan for your convinience, but it does not seem possible without running a public website. While anything is possible in Molsheim culture, it is certainly a remarkable anomaly that at least 3 different versions of one part seem to co-exist under one and the same part number! The usual practise was obviously to issue a new part number as evidenced by the aluminium road wheels.

Hi,

1) I believe the body is bronze - but will double check.
2) Re changing the part to the more elegent version, I have started a new thread.
3) Could I see the page 7 picture Brouillard? You could either e-mail it to me as Bugwrench does and I could place it on the forum, or you could sign up for a free Photobucket account and place it on the forum yourself - it is well easy.

I would like to thank everyone for their help. One small part - one large debate.....only a thousand or so more to get clarified!

Regards



SB

Or use the photo system on this forum. It can be used for everything "Bugatti".

_________________
Vive la Marque !!

Yes, a Brescia waterpump is driven by a screwdriver slot but this raises an interesting issue. Your starting point is Molsheim drawings and in this case the pump spindle 22/23MOT2175. But how has this part number entered your project? Is proof available that Molsheim actually used this Brescia waterpump spindle (with screw driver slot drive) in the early production T35? Did you use a Bill of Material reference to compile your total list of parts?
Regards, Bugwrench

Hi,

As usual, you come up with a good point! And annoyingly, it beats me to looking potentially smart on the forum later this week.

Johan asked on another thread how I could get the accuracy better and if I was modelling a particular car. I then had a light bulb above head moment and remembered Richard Day at the Trust occasionally bringing over aged looking folders containing yellowing paperwork that looked like they contained every part (bill of materials?) that went into a particular car. I was not sure though, so thought I would keep quiet, wait till I went up to the Trust next (next few days) and see if the folders listed part numbers. If they did, then a cross referencing exercise would ensure the accuracy of the project.

Is this what you are getting at, or am I getting excited over a folly?

Regards


SB

When Stuart visits the Trust perhaps he could again express the concern of those of us who freely offer our pictures to this website that their latest "album" consists of historic photograhs defaced as before to discourage their reproduction.

Hi,

I can see both sides of the argument, but I am not a conduit to the Trust.

Speak to them. They are reasonable people.

Regards

SB

Stuart, there is another variable I have not considered; the T35 was Grand Prix racer. A production Grand Prix car, but a racer never-the-less. The specification as built will differ from the specification as sold; the prototype for instance. When Ettore drove it to Lyon the radiator and bonnet straps differed from the others, but by the time it was sold to Sir Robert Bird (I'm relying on memory here; I'm at work - still waiting for my home internet connection to be installed) it resembled the other Lyon cars, and was fitted with balloon tyres, and road-equipped.

But if you have access to a file containing the list of components fitted to a specific car, well, it seems to me that complete accuracy becomes a little easier. By the way, did you know that the prototype T35 used the chassis longerons from a Brescia, so sayeth Conway. Smart man, Hugh Conway, and he wrote well too. You may have heard of him, he was also responsible for starting a learning centre for students of Bugatti - called, I think, The Bugatti Trust, in England, a small island off the west coast of France...............ENOUGH!

Sorry - long day.
Johan

Where and when did Hugh Conway say that the chassis side-rails of the prototype type 35 were the same as a "Brescia" ????

It will be my pleasure to enlighten you: Bugatti Magnum, page 122, 4th paragraph (from the top of the page) and I quote :

"The frame as indicated was new, although the prototype car used Brescia longerons with stiffening pieces added under the side members (this car still exists, having been sent to the London Motor Show in October 1924). The widening of the centre of the frame allowed the body to be attached directly to it, the tail following the line to a point behind the rear spring anchorage, the springs splayed outwards to the wheel brake backplates."

Clear enough for you? If not I can quote from Conway's Grand Prix Bugatti or Pur Sang - your choice.


I am Johan

Thank you Johan for the information.

Why I raised this query is because when a picture was published in "Bugantics" of the prototype chassis (Summer 1969) I compared it with a friend's bare original type 22 chassis and the two were similar, but not the same (Vol. 32 No. 2 29).

The last I heard the car belonged to Ellie Haga in USA. Perhaps she has some pictures of the car being restored by her late husband ???