Johan

come down to Pebbel Beach next month, Gooding is auctioning Dr. Williamson's collection then
so you can see her then

every car-type of bugatti should be celebrated, but one should bear in mind, that many of them, like the glorious T57sc also has faults.
but here they are. my "oscars" for the ugliest bugatties:

1) T 13, # 484; Ive always wondered, why fritz schlumpf never chanced
this czech homemade body,

2) T 57, #57627: it had one of the beautifullst bodies "coupe ganglof" and
ended up in australia with a curious and worse proportioned
T 59 replica Ive ever seen ( photo in: bugattis in australia)

3) T57 , # 57142, body by james young. typically english, every car,
bentley, rolls royce, bugatti lokked as they only made one body
for more than 15 years.

wonder , what car you will chose my freinds

best regards
mike

Thanks for the kind invitation. It's just that, how shall I put this, I am poor. And for the price of a return ticket to the USA I can triple the size of my book collection. Mind you, if you, or indeed anyone else, will be attending this momentous occasion, please go up to 57374 and tell her she is loved, and that we are all praying that her new owner will protect her honour.

Note to new owner : Do not take this noble car anywhere near the chrome-platers you Varmint!

Johan

heck
i know what you mean
but i still go there anyway each year & yes the bookcollection & modelcollection does suffer under it
but it's so worth seein all those cars IRL

Mike, let me get back to your list of ugliest Bugattis.

I'm in the mood for stirring today, so let me make the following statement. Any replica that involves the destruction of the original is hideous. On the other hand, building a car from a "pile of bits" is often times quite beautiful, and total recreations that involves few to no original parts is beautiful if the builder says it is.

Are there any original Bugattis that qualifies as ugly? Sure, but not one is so ugly it warrants destruction.

Regards
Johan

Sorry Johan but you are now seriously out of line in my opinion.
The Kellog car is NOT a Bugatti let alone a FRENCH BUGATTI as is the subject of this section of the Forum!
Regards, Bugwrench

An attack Bugwrench? How thrillingly pugnacious! Part of me agree with you, of course, but ultimately the owners right to refer to his own property as he sees fit, does win out. Which raises an interesting point, when a replica/ recreation/ facsimile hits the market, and is referred to and advertised as a Bugatti, where is the point at which it becomes a falsehood?

The late Charles Dean built a T50B engined T59 special, using an ex-factory chassis and mostly original components, but the car turned out quite unique, it was certainly never intended to be a replica. Yet, in my opinion, this car cannot be anything but a Bugatti. But now lets take this argument one step further : When Tom Wheatcroft wanted a Royale, he commissioned one. Not a single grub, screw, doohickie or thingamabob is ex-factory. Every last bit was crafted by a collection of the finest craftsmen in the world. Bugwrench, is the Wheatcroft car a Bugatti? Is the Lauren Atlantic, having suffered the automotive restoration equivalent of taking a belt-sander to a Stradivarius still a Bugatti? And if the answer is : Of course it is, let me counter with : But is it original? Is it more, or less original than the Wheatcroft car? How much of the Lauren Atlantic was made by the Bugatti factory and how much of it was remanufactured by Paul Russel?

Only one thing is certain, neither of us will be consulted as to what constitutes either a Bugatti or an original, especially not if there is money involved. Don't know about you, but that won't stop me from sharing my opinions with anyone who cares to listen.

And I am of the opinion that your purist attitude is too restrictive. I have heard the following definition of a Puritan : Someone who fears that someone, somewhere is having a good time. Not only is the Kellogg car a Bugatti, but it is a particularly fine Bugatti at that. And Mr. Kellogg, unlike that bastard Lauren, never killed a Bugatti in his life. Lauren's ego is directly responsible for the utter ruination of no less than 3 historic Bugattis. Now that is something worth getting worked up about, not semantics.

Regards
Johan

Please speak for yourself and except that perhaps some people know more about Bugatti cars than you.



Call me a purist or whatever but you do not have to be a purist to accept that a real Bugatti should have its origin in Molsheim and not somewhere else. Not very complicated but just common sense. I am talking about French Bugattis of course.
It is fascinating to notice your split personality. At one end an admiration for Ettore and on the other hand an admiration for someone misusing the Ettore conceptions for building a Boulevard crawler.
That Kellogg calls the thing with 4 wheels a Bugatti is his privilege but that does not mean that we have to do that as well.



I have given my opinion about your first sentence above.
I agree and I have stated that openly for many years that in my opinion most Lauren cars have been destroyed in the effort to Pebble Bleach them.
But Johan please tell me which T57 was killed to provide the engine for the Mr. Kellogg's 4-wheeler?
Kind regards, Bugwrench

Tricky subject.

Does it deserve a Bugatti badge? - I think not (sorry Johan).

Why?
1) It is recorded that EB got upset when people put their own lights (headlights) on his cars. I can't imagine he would be happy with a redesign and bitzer like the Kellogg car. It could be just his arrogance and my misinterpretation, but there you go.
2) Page 89 of "Memoirs of a Bugatti Hunter" on cars built from other cars.
"If it is recognised that the mergers of bloodlines improve the human race, what is there to say about these inbred marriages of components?
This gives me the opportunity to discuss replicas. Far be it from me to cast the first stone.............
However, I do reproach them for not having known how to copy, of having introduced personal considerations into methods of manufacture, choice of materials, the matter of dimensions, the choice of colours. If you admire the works of Bugatti, be prepared to play the part of interpreter when you restore your cars. If you think you can do better, become a manufacturer yourself and above all, put your own name on your masterpiece!"

The above is my view in a nutshell. Design your own car – put your own name on it.

Bugwrench, you replied to a statement I made as follows : "Please speak for yourself and except that perhaps some people know more about Bugatti cars than you."

I think perhaps you meant to use the word "accept" and yes I do accept that many people know much more about Bugattis than myself. You seem to think that you are able to influence and/or dictate to others as to what they can and cannot do with their Bugattis; please do share with us how a fore-lock tugging Ferdinand Piech grovelled for your permission to build the Veyron. Did Ralph Lauren and Paul Russell beseech you on bended knee to be allowed to restore EXK 6? Come off it Bugwrench, you are as powerless as I am to prevent the wholesale destruction of a precious heritage. The rich can and will do as they like, we are mere spectators. Yes, we can, and we must speak out against vandalism, just as we must honour those individuals who preserve the originality of their Bugattis. I am speaking only for myself here, you understand, but I do not own a Bugatti, therefore I am merely a spectator.

The Bugattis you own are your property, do with them as you please, and by all means delude yourself into thinking that you can dictate the conduct of the other owners. I prefer the cold and brutal reality of my lack of power.

As always, I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to be as obnoxious as you please.

I am Yours
Johan Buchner

hello johann

I really agree with you, that cars, created out of a rusty pile of bids should be not regarded as "ugly" when the restorer makes a body of his own taste, but the kellog car, just like " if I had lived in 1931, and if I`d
bought a new chassis direct from molsheim, I would have figoni,
chapron or any other coachbuilder ,ordered to make this body....
this is no recreation ,only a dream ( my opinion). same for me is, to change an original body for another, which never had existed, like theese T59 bodies on former T57 coaches or tourers. nice T4o, T44 bodies had gone for grand sport replicas...

and to went on with raffaellis words, making a car out of parts from varios
other...because there had been a lot of bugattis around, and we took the best parts from them.

mike

My first choice go to the 1929 Bugatti Type 35B #4914 and for many reasons, his winners and his clearest history, rare thing on a Bugatti Grand Prix and it has never undergone restoration, she kept a beautiful patina. No really... it's my first favorite that comes immediately to the mind.



To be continued...

_________________
Make your dream devour your life, so that life doesn't devour your dream.
[Antoine de Saint-Exupéry]

Thank you Scuderia CC, this is an utterly glorious choice. This car should be declared as a world heritage site, let us hope it is possible for her to remain so original. Question : Can this car still be driven and if so, should it still be driven? For the record, I do not have the answer.

But thanks again for choosing the Monaco winner, I had hoped that someone less vulgar than myself would.

Johan

As for "should it be driven" I would say "YES, it should be driven."

Cars are made to drive, not to stop, and not to stand still at all.

Which of course interferes nicely with preserving the car. Things will need to be replaced. As long as period and correct replacements are used, not too much of a problem, but when those are not available...

Where is the balance between preservation and being able to drive the car...

For spectators this will lean more towards preservation (generally) and for those lucky owners, it will lean more towards the ability to drive the car.
Being able to combine these two, is a great thing. However, sometimes choices need to be made.

_________________
Vive la Marque !!

Hi Herman

It is as I suspected; there are no easy answers to the reasonable use/preservation dilemma. Let me raise another conundrum : Let us assume that this car is approaching the point where the engine is sufficiently worn out to warrant a mechanical rebuild. Which is better, a sensitive renovation of the engine, including replacement of worn pistons, conrods etc. while still keeping the precious patina on the surfaces, or have a replacement engine fitted so that the car can be used, while the original engine is preserved? Or is that cheating?

Needless to say, I have no answers for these either.

Johan