There are many differences between prewar and postwar steel, but you can never be really sure what you have. An indicator that perhaps can be usefull is that postwar steel is even with the flow additives like aluminium (that you can find also in prewar steel), is generally cleaner. So you will find much more phosphor in the older material.

Marco

Did I hear or read somewhere that post-1945 steel (that is after atomic bombs were being tested and dropped on cities) has minute traces of radioactivity that was absent from pre-war material? Or is that urban myth?

I guess that would be hard to determine. Lots of ore is protected very well, deep in the ground.

Also prewar steel contains more carbon, and carbon is radioactive as well (C14 traces in C12 carbon)

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Vive la Marque !!

In the early eighties I took over a type 35B "project" from VSCC member Gordon Russell. The car was being assembled by Alan Wragg in his workshop near Blidworth in Nottinghamshire. I visited Alan on several occassions and became friendly with him.

Shortly before he died (in a climbing accident) he told me he had supplied Keith Butti with six new chassis frames (1 Brescia (004BSR) and five GP) and that he was using them to build complete cars which he would pass off as original.

Some of these chassis frame numbers were later recorded in a list which Alan supplied to the UK BOC and which was published in "Bugantics".

There are six car which have been associated with Keith Butti and which (in most cases) have large question marks against them :

4394/ 4421 / 4595 / 4805 / 43256 / 51150.

With regard to the experts who have validated Frank's car :

Hugh Conway was an honest man (in my experience) and was inclined to believe what he was told. The result was the he accredited some cars without giving them a proper inspection.

Sauzay, to the best of my knowledge, has no special expertise with regard to Bugatti chassis frames and no evidence has been offered to substantiate his view that Frank's car is the Cholmondeley car.

Rondoni is a very talented engineer who has run a business mass-producing new components many of which must have been used in the manufacture of fake Bugattis.
My reading of an article about him published around the time of the Centennial Rally is that he has manufactured over 250 new Bugatti motors. His letter wihich claims to confirm the authenticity of Frank's car provides absolutely no supporting evidence to support his views. I would like to hear from Laurent why he is so certain that Frank's car is orginal : photos, metallurgical test results, measurements or WHY.

Until such time as proper evidence is produced, claims associating this car with Lord Cholmondeley should be removed from the bugattibuilder website.

There is no chance to identify pre war steel . Normaly pre war steel has more sulfor and more phosphor , ( normaly ! ). Pre war , there was much more nickel in the alloys and no molybden. You still can buy steel with pre war specification fo example in Russia . 40 x and st 40 is easy to get in Russia . Steel with a coarse structure and a lot of sulfor and phosphor .

On your story I have nothing to comment, as I am not knowledgable in that piece of history.

However, to remove the car from this website is completely out of focus, and I highly disagree. This website is about Bugatti in the broadest sense. Franks car is one of them. Whether or not the supplied history is correct, is not important. However, by posting here, the true history might be discovered, and as long as this discussion is going on, the car stays where it is.

In order:
-French Bugattis
-Artioli Bugattis
-VW Bugattis
-French replicas
-Kitcars using Bugatti parts (Molsheim or not Molsheim)
-Kitcars using other parts

Please tell me why the Kellog car can be on this site, the Kelsey special can be on this site, and Franks car cannot be on the site?

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Vive la Marque !!

My apoligies for the paragraph you quote. I was under the inflluence of alchohol after a long and stressful day dealing with sub-standard builders working on my chapel. My fingers lost communication with my brain.

What I meant to say, but clearly failed to, is that reference to the car having previously owned by Lord Cholmondeley should be removed from the wiki until proper evidence is forthcoming.

Howver, I do hope that the claims made for the car can be upheld. It would be great to have it at the Pageant of Power at Cholmondeley Castle next year.

With regard to the comment about steel ; surely, if a chassis can be shown to be manufactured from standard mild steel of a type available through UK stock-holders in the eighties then it is NOT an original chassis frame.

OK, this clears things up.

Indeed, if metallurgical tests can show whether the frame is 80's or 20's, one can draw conclusions.

Also, let me say this:

It proves to be difficult to discover the history of cars. Prewar history is difficult, because people who have witnessed things then are becoming scarce.

But more surprisingly, even 1980's history is proving to be difficult, even though the main players from that era are still alive mostly. I can say just one thing: Write down what you know, as it would be a shame to have this knowledge disappearing over time.

As for the problems with your contractor: I feel with you. In about a month or so I will spend some hours in court, telling the judge that I want my leaky shower fixed.

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Vive la Marque !!

Who created the myth that prewar steel contains more carbon?
Bugwrench

Herman, Something is seriously wrong here!
Your quote above was NOT made by GCL nor did he make the typing error in 'rmoved'.
GCL ONLY suggested the reference to Cholmondeley should be removed. Check yourself!
Bugwrench

Mea Culpa

Sorry to cause confusion. Herman is blameless in this matter. My original posting was badly expressed and I corrected it early this morning.

The main reason why the history of Bugattis is so confusing is that some so-called experts have allowed disreputable fakers and dealers to make claims which only a few people have the knowledge or opportunity to refute.

The UK Bugatti Owners Club have failed lamentably to challenge the prostitution of the Bugatti name. Cars which have absolutely no original Molsheim components in them and have items such as fuel taps and instruments which are nothing like original are pictured in the club magazines as Bugattis without any reference to their true origins. Cars which compete in the Williams Trophy race are supposed to have three out of five original components. A competing 35B which I inspected recently has no orignal major components at all. And probably not many minor ones either.

I am informed by an absolutely reliable source that a senior member of the UK club has deliberately restamped a genuine chassis frame in order to give it a spurious history. No wonder our friends in Holland have taken over from the UK BOC and the Bugatti Trust in serious Bugatti research and registration. Thanks you Kees for being prepared to expose some of the lies being pedalled by the fake-Bugatti "mafia".

Oh yes, this quote came from GCL, but he later (after I made my post) modified his post. Check my post date, check the modified by GCL date!

I better install some mod to prevent editing when new posts have been made. This happened to me several times already. (also in the 57252 thread).

_________________
Vive la Marque !!

Shipbuilders do.

_________________
Vive la Marque !!

sorry , but to say that pre war steel has more carbon is absolute nonsense . The amount of carbon is exact the same like today The amount of carbon depends of what kind of steel it is .

hello

now this discussion is coming into a right trail. it was the BOC, who first "allowed"
building up cars on new( I dont like the word "fake") chassis, manly happened on T35, T51 and brescia cars. they also put out the rule that a car will be accepted when it has three out of five original compnents ( like the VCC and the VSCC).
The BOC club also claimed to have the only bugatti-authorities in the world. now word is out that conway did`nt always act that way, if you look through the books of barry price ( wonderfull ones), you`ll find lots of mistakes and maybe in a some years
peaple will say the same about mr. sewell, who knows.
during the last 3 or 4 decades so many original parts changed their "original" car, where built into other original ones to replace word out pieces or were built in replica chassis or frames.
and it wount be the real problem if a car is 5o, 6o, 7o or 8o% original. 1oo& original bugatti racers are rare, as other famous race cars like the mercedes ssk, some alfas or even pre WWI racers.

so lets enjoy them, thank the owners who put them on the road again.

mike