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 Post subject: Re: T51A - #51134
PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:45 am 
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Last edited by Uwe on Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: T51A - #51134
PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 12:03 pm 
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Location: Bergen NH (NL)
Lazarus wrote:
I love this photo.

What - when - where??


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 Post subject: Re: T51A - #51134
PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 12:11 pm 
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Location: Bergen NH (NL)
Uwe wrote:
These data are correct :?:

No. Burggaller never had a T39 or T39A, but a T37A. Sold to Hans Simons when buying #4842 from Emil Bremme. Wrong is also the #37350 shown on page 1 of this thread, it is simply a thesis which is based on the number carried by the Mulhouse museum car. Again, the Mulhouse car has NOTHING to do with Burggaller!

Conway's remark about the T39C remains a mystery. Correct designation by the way would be T39A, and I do not know any of these in Swiss ownership by that time. Probably a typo meaning T35C, because Karrer's #4936 disappeared at that time. Which by the way carried the registration 695-L.


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 Post subject: Re: T51A - #51134
PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 12:23 pm 
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Location: Bergen NH (NL)
Wrong is also the #4853 given on thread page 1 for the Bremme-Burggaller T35B. Correct is #4842, where #4853 had been delivered to Walter Postler of Niedersedlitz who substituted his older T35A (#4536 or #4537). Postler crashed his new T35B heavily at the first outing, the Hohnstein hill climb, which caused him to terminate racing.


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 Post subject: Re: T51A - #51134
PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 12:38 pm 
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Michael Müller wrote:
Conway's remark about the T39C remains a mystery. Correct designation by the way would be T39A, and I do not know any of these in Swiss ownership by that time. Probably a typo meaning T35C

I don't think it am an error, Conway writes sometimes 39Compr.
Thus 39C = 39Compr.


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 Post subject: Re: T51A - #51134
PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 10:04 pm 
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Uwe wrote:
Michael Müller wrote:
Conway's remark about the T39C remains a mystery. Correct designation by the way would be T39A, and I do not know any of these in Swiss ownership by that time. Probably a typo meaning T35C

I don't think it am an error, Conway writes sometimes 39Compr.
Thus 39C = 39Compr.


Michael, Uwe is right. Molsheim internal reference was 39C not 39A. Unfortunately for 51134 there are no Molsheim workshop references about the conversion from 39C to "1500 à double arbre" but also no reference to fitting a 100mm stroke crank to convert the car to a 2.3 T51. What makes you so sure Escher never raced the car as a T51A?
Bugwrench


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 Post subject: Re: T51A - #51134
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 8:51 pm 
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Last edited by Uwe on Fri Feb 03, 2017 6:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: T51A - #51134
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:02 am 
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@ Bugwrench

When the car was delivered to Escher he had stopped racing already, the car most probably was destined for Ecurie Braillard, as there had been personal relations between Willy and Nelly. Braillard drivers had been Louis Braillard and Benoit Falchetto, and none of these 2 ever started in the 1.5 litre class, also not at hillclimbs. Also no other driver in the period in question started with a T51A at one of the major Swiss events.

@ Uwe

Of course I know Tragatsch's Burggaller short-bio. The fact that he draws a line from Burggaller to Martin does not mean that he is right. Steinweg only used Burggaller's engine which he put into his own monoplace chassis.


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 Post subject: Re: T51A - #51134
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:11 pm 
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Image


Sorry for taking up this matter again.
The car above at the Mulhouse museum is reported being chassis 37350 with the T51A engine from - or may be only destined for - 51134.

Let's drop the wrong color - the car was white for all his 20 year long racing career - and the alloy wheels (in this configuration the car had always wire wheels), and concentrate on the chassis number.

We all know that these cars had no real "chassis number", it was more a kind of vehicle number which was shown on the typical Bugatti brass plate fixed to the bulkhead in the engine bay. Additionally this number was stamped to the left bearing arm of the engine which is part of the crankcase. The frame as such only had a separate 3-digit frame number. I hope this is correct so far.

The bearing arms of the engine had been shortened by Steinweg to make it fit into the narrowed monoplace frame. Additionally to the vehicle number the engine also was stamped with the engine number as such, which in this case should be # "2". Is it possible that the engine number falled victim to the shortened bearing arms? This would explain that the engine often falsely is designated as "number 51134".

Period engine bay photos I have of the car don't show any ID plate. Understandable as the available space of the monoplace body is very limited. I understand that also today the car has no ID plate, anybody able to confirm this?

If so, what is left to conclude it is chassis 37350? Yes, the frame number. So what is the frame number, and does it fit to 37350?


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 Post subject: Re: T51A - #51134
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:28 am 
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Last edited by Uwe on Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:49 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: T51A - #51134
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:36 pm 
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Michael Müller wrote:
Image


Sorry for taking up this matter again.
The car above at the Mulhouse museum is reported being chassis 37350 with the T51A engine from - or may be only destined for - 51134.

Let's drop the wrong color - the car was white for all his 20 year long racing career - and the alloy wheels (in this configuration the car had always wire wheels), and concentrate on the chassis number.

We all know that these cars had no real "chassis number", it was more a kind of vehicle number which was shown on the typical Bugatti brass plate fixed to the bulkhead in the engine bay. Additionally this number was stamped to the left bearing arm of the engine which is part of the crankcase. The frame as such only had a separate 3-digit frame number. I hope this is correct so far.

The bearing arms of the engine had been shortened by Steinweg to make it fit into the narrowed monoplace frame. Additionally to the vehicle number the engine also was stamped with the engine number as such, which in this case should be # "2". Is it possible that the engine number falled victim to the shortened bearing arms? This would explain that the engine often falsely is designated as "number 51134".

Period engine bay photos I have of the car don't show any ID plate. Understandable as the available space of the monoplace body is very limited. I understand that also today the car has no ID plate, anybody able to confirm this?

If so, what is left to conclude it is chassis 37350? Yes, the frame number. So what is the frame number, and does it fit to 37350?

If it is a T37 frame,then there will be old engine mounting holes for the four cylinder sump.Someone needs to have a look.


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 Post subject: Re: T51A - #51134
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:07 am 
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who can tell me why the chassis no. 37350 (engine 51134) is specified??
Attachment:
37370.jpg
37370.jpg [ 122.74 KiB | Viewed 9392 times ]


Last edited by Uwe on Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: T51A - #51134
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:32 pm 
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Location: Bergen NH (NL)
Burggaller has nothing to do with the car as displayed at Mulhouse except of being the former owner of the engine. He mounted the T51A engine into his car (#4842, ex Bremme) and converted it to a kind of pseudo-monoplace. "Pseudo" means that neither the frame nor the bodywork was narrowed, only seat and steering went to the center. This conversion was reversed in 1934 back to standard full two-seater body, and this car then was sold to Steinweg at the end of the 1934 season.

Steinweg had his own monoplace, a real one - with narrowed frame and sleak body, for which he used his T35C #4821. He only needed Burggaller's engine which he put into his monoplace, his own 2 liter engine he installed to #4842 which he then sold as complete car. The car at Mulhouse therefore is not the Burggaller car, but that of Steinweg, which after his fatal accident went through various hands until finally found its rest place at Mulhouse. It was raced still in the 40's.

Considering that the car indeed has the frame of 37350 - which up to now is unproven - there are 2 possible scenarios. The first is that Steinweg for his monoplace used the obsolete frame of #37350, possibly because he could perform this job by keeping #4821 still in action as long as possible. The other is that the frame of the "Steinweg monoplace" (it is impossible to give this car any clear identity by number) somewhere between 1935 and 1950 got damaged and was replaced by a surplus T37 frame. However, the only accident I know was that of Steinweg, but photos confirm that despite the fatal result the car was not severely damaged, surely not that much that another frame was necessary.


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 Post subject: Re: T51A - #51134
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:26 pm 
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I'm almost your opinion: The Steinweg 35c monoplace is in Mulhouse. Steinweg bought a Bugatti by Burgggaller (4842 or 51134) and used the 51a engine in his monoplace, and used also the chassis plate 37350.

Burggaller could have given a Bugatti in payment for 51134 (the chassis plate 37350 used to pay no import fee).
I like this version well ...


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 Post subject: Re: T51A - #51134
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 10:02 pm 
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Location: Bergen NH (NL)
Burggaller never bought 51134, only the T51A engine which originally was installed in or even only destined for 51134. 51134 was delivered to Switzerland for Ecurie Braillard (via BUCAR and Willy Escher) as normal T51. The lower sump of the Bugatti engines had the chassis number stamped in, so the Burggaller car, and later the Steinweg monoplace, had an engine stamped "51134".

As far I know the car at the Mulhouse museum has no chassis plate, if I am wrong I would like to see a photo.


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