#44761
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| The Raven special. http://www.bugattibuilder.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1133 |
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| Author: | Hunter [ Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | The Raven special. |
The Bugatti Trust Album 13 shows pictures of the Raven special with a type 44 chassis number. I remember this car very well - very noisy with stub exhausts and driven by a portly gentleman wearing a black eye patch. The car later passed through the hands of the London motor trade and was made to look better by the fitment of a GP radiator. In recent years it has competed in European race meetings. I always understood that the car was based on a (37?) GP chassis and when Bert Raven described the car in 1954 he thought it was as well. The chassis no. given by the Trust is believed to be the no. of the car from which the engine came. |
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| Author: | bugatti69 [ Sun Dec 14, 2008 1:13 am ] |
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#44761
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| Author: | onebugatti [ Fri Dec 19, 2008 7:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Raven |
I remember this car, and remember when the GP chassis was switched from it in a carve up job while passing through a dealers hands. The car passed that way through Coys some years later, and likely that part of the history got lost in memory for reasons fairly clear. Anyone know where the original chassis went? 
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| Author: | Legaleagle [ Fri Dec 19, 2008 8:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Raven Special. |
I think I'm right in saying that when the car was offered for sale by auction it was described as having a genuine GP chassis. I spoke to the present owner a couple of years ago - he was firmly of the opinion that it had a GP chassis. |
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| Author: | onebugatti [ Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Misbehaving Raven |
Hey, I am not making that up. But what I add is just from memory, and being there, being interested in the car before the chassis removal, and seeing the same car cheap without it. No more no less. In fact, the car was on the market several times after the chassis was err, well, taken for another car god forbid! I am positive that the information went into the BOC, the register, and certainly is out there in the clear memory of most of the over 50 crowd that actually owned Bugattis before there was an internet. It was 1987, so if the current owner believes the chassis was not switched in a London Mews dealing then, good for him. Since when does anyone believe an auction catalog ? ( Hold on , a COYS catalog ) , Come on guy.....! |
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| Author: | Johan Buchner [ Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Sir I Must Protest. Are you honestly suggesting that anybody could be so fiendish, so cold-hearted, so downright evil as to lie about a Bugatti's provenance, and for mere profit at that? Surely not? I am simply horrified. Regards Johan Buchner |
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| Author: | Legaleagle [ Sat Dec 20, 2008 2:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | The Raven special. |
So, was it Dan Marguiles or Ivan Dutton who dismantled the Raven Special took out the GP chassis and substituted a type 44 chassis. If you're making this accusation, let's have some more detail. Where did the 44 chassis come from ? Where did the 37 chassis go ? Who did the very substantial work involving fitting the mechanical components from the Raven Special into a completely different chassis. I have helped a friend with his GP and his 44. They are vey, very different. Lets have some names and dates please. |
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| Author: | onebugatti [ Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:37 am ] |
| Post subject: | Craven the Raven |
I will trace your post with answers in capital letters...... SOUNDS LIKE I AM ON THE WITNESS STAND LEGALEAGLE 
LE: So, was it Dan Marguiles or Ivan Dutton who dismantled the Raven Special took out the GP chassis and substituted a type 44 chassis. I NEVER REMEMBER IVAN BEING IN A LONDON MEWS, AND WOULD DANNY DO SUCH A THING BEFORE SPAIN? I AM UNAWARE THAT THE ORIGINAL GP CHASSIS WAS EVER SUBSTITUTED WITH A T44 CHASSIS, I HAVE NEVER HEARD THAT BEFORE. WHAT I SAID, IS THE ORIGINAL GP CHASSIS WAS REPLACED WITH ANOTHER CHASSIS, AND I RECALL IT WAS A NEW CHASSIS SWOP LE : If you're making this accusation, let's have some more detail. THE DEVIL IS IN THE DETAIL. I AM JUST PASSING INFO THAT HAPPENED IN THE 1980'S, NOT SURE WHO TURNED THE WRENCHES , OR IN LEGAL TERMS, ''PULLED THE TRIGGER''. 
LE : Where did the 44 chassis come from ? A T44 CHASSIS? I THOUGHT THIS SPECIAL WAS LINKED THE T44 ENGINE AND NEVER WAS THE SUBJECT OF A T44 CHASSIS, EVER. LE: Where did the 37 chassis go ? WHO EVER SAID IT WAS A T37 CHASSIS? IF SO, WHICH ONE WAS IT? IT COULD HAVE BEEN A T51, ANY OF THE T35'S OR A FACTORY REPLACEMENT GP CHASSIS . AM I RIGHT? I AM SURE WE WILL NEVER KNOW. LE: Who did the very substantial work involving fitting the mechanical components from the Raven Special into a completely different chassis. SOUNDS LIKE A BY THE HOUR QUESTION.... CONSIDERING WE HAVE NO FACTS ON A T44 CHASSIS BEING INVOLVED AT ALL. IF THIS IS THE CASE, AND YOUR CHAIN OF THOUGHT IS RIGHT, THE RAVEN SPECIAL IS A 1980'S CREATION. REMEMBER, LIKELY IT HAD A LOAD OF GP PARTS, AS THE REAR AXLE WOULD HAVE BEEN ALSO GP, ECT. ETC. I WONDER HOW MUCH WAS PLUNDERED? I AM SURE A FEW PEOPLE KNOW. I have helped a friend with his GP and his 44. They are vey, very different. OH, IS THERE A REAL DIFFERANCE BETWEEN A GP AND A T44 CHASSIS? I HAVE AN AUCTION CATALOG THAT SAYS THEY ARE INDENTICAL. OPPS, I JUST READ THE FINE PRINT, THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT THE METALLURICAL STRUCTURE! LE: Lets have some names and dates please. FORGIVE ME FATHER FOR I HAVE SINNED, MY LAST CONFESSION WAS IN A PUB OUTSIDE OF BRIGHTON , ON MY WAY TO COWPIE SURREY . I WAS DRIVING WITH A ONE ARMED MAN WITH AN SSK. I ARRIVED AT THE CHURCH AND AS I CONFESSED TO FATHER WHO KEPT ASKING FOR NAMES AND DATES , THEN CHASSIS NUMBERS TO VERIFY MY SINS . SOON AFTER THAT I REALIZED I COULD BAPTISE ANYONE IN AN EMERGENCY. THAT IS THE YEAR I APPLIED FOR SAINTHOOD. I AM STILL PROMISED AN ANSWER FROM THE POPE. |
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| Author: | onebugatti [ Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | I accept your protest Sir, with great pleasure! |
Johan Buchner wrote: Sir I Must Protest.
Are you honestly suggesting that anybody could be so fiendish, so cold-hearted, so downright evil as to lie about a Bugatti's provenance, and for mere profit at that? Surely not? I am simply horrified. Regards Johan Buchner |
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| Author: | Legaleagle [ Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Raven Special. |
I think what was being questioned in the first place was the attribution of a type 44 chassis no. to the Raven Special by the Bugatti Trust in their album 13. With regards to Ivan Dutton, without in any way suggesting that he had anything to do with swapping chassis, I would point out that in the eighties he did work for Coys of Kensington on Bugattis which were offered for sale in their London "Mews" showroom. His expertise was highly valued, then and now. |
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| Author: | Greg Morgan [ Sat Dec 20, 2008 4:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
I actually worked on this car on Saturday mornings in the late eighties- it definately had a type 37 chassis then. I thought it was connected at some point in its earlier life to the Essen Scott Type 51. They shared a single seater body or something. |
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