Kindly compare these two photographs : The top one is 46373 according to Wiki, but the wheelbase looks too short to be a T46 - only the T50 came in the short wheelbase. The bottom picture, 50126 - also from Wiki shows the first body on the car now carrying the Abbott roadster body. I wonder if it is the same car in both photos ; the only difference I can see is a step plate on top of the rear wing on 50126, absent on 46373. On the other hand, the registration numbers are completely different, but they are both Swiss, and didn't Bucar deliver cars to Switzerland as well? The following T50 chassis were delivered to Bucar (Bugatti Review Vol.7 Issue 4) 50121 , 50122 , 50125 , 50126 , 50135 , 50137 & 50138. Unfortunately the Review does not list the T46 chassis' (if any) delivered to Bucar.

In any event, even if they are not the same car, I am fairly sure that the top one is a T50 and not a T46. Does anyone know anything about the coachbuilder? Very elegant car(s?)




Kind Regards
Johan Buchner

I think that the 969 J (CH) on wiki is not the 50126. It is an error. They are also the 46373.

The 969 J (CH) is not T50 with DS 210 (GB), QS 7621 (GB) and BE 42122 (CH)

Christian

Update:

http://www.bugattibuilder.com/wiki/inde ... itle=46373

http://www.bugattibuilder.com/wiki/inde ... itle=50126

Hi Christian

Thank you for the incredible amount of work you put into Wiki. Thanks to you this is now one of the most comprehensive databases available anywhere. And access is free - quite incredible really.

Having said that, are you sure this a T46? Now correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the T46 only ever have a 3.5 metre wheelbase? Only with the introduction of the T50 was the chassis shortened to 3.1 metres. In 1932 the T50T was introduced with the longer 3.5 chassis. Now this is where I am not sure of my facts : As far as I know, the T46 and T50/T were all available up to roughly 1934 when all touring cars were replaced by the T57. I do not, however, know whether the T50 and T50T were ever offered at the same time - I seem to remember Conway mentioning that the last 20 of the 65 T50 were all T50T.

I am making the following assumptions : The car you refer to has a short chassis. It can therefore not be a T46. It must be a T50. It is dangerous to make assumptions about Bugatti, often they are wrong. But I am very arrogant, so it must be a T50.

What do you think?

Johan

PS. What is a T50S?

T50 with 3.1 meter wheelbase.

_________________
Vive la Marque !!

No, no, no, no, no, oh Hell no! It is no such thing! Really Herman, I am surprised at you sometimes ; a T50 with a 3.1m wheelbase is a T50 - no "S" see? A T50 with a 3.5m wheelbase is a T50T - see?

Which ignoramus thought he knew better than Conway? My question stands - What is a T50S?

There - much better.

Johan

See list below

13A A touring version of the type 13 with a cast bulkhead.
30A A long wheelbase version with reinforced frame.
35A An economy version of the original roller bearing type 35.
35B A supercharged and enlarged version of the type 35. This designation was given to the model by the Molsheim design office. It was initially known in public as the 35TC (Targa Compresseur).
35C COMPRESSEUR i.e.supercharged version ; 2 litre.
35T TARGA. Version of the unsupercharged type 35 enlarged to 2.3litre.
35TC TARGA COMPRESSEUR. The supercharged version of 35T which soon became known as the 35B.
37A Supercharged version of type 37. Same as two cars listed below.
37C COMPRESSEUR. Factory designation for 37A
37CP COMPRESSEUR. Factory designation for 37A. For example, a photo in Conway’s “Bugatti” shows the right rear arm of a 37A clearly marked with the chassis no. 37283 and the engine no. 182CP
38A The supercharged version of the standard 38 intended to extend the
model’s life by the addition of the small type 39 supercharger. The last 50 or so of the 380 cars sold were so equipped.
38C COMPRESSEUR. As with the 37A the 38A was referred to by the factory as the 38C.
39A Supercharged version – 10cv – 160bhp (??)
39C A 60 x 66mm version of the 39A giving 126 bhp on Elcosine fuel.
39D A version of the type 39A with modified cambox and enlarged exhaust valves. Five built in 1927 for racing.
40A An enlarged and Americanised version of the successful type 40 using a type 49 block with its twin plugs, and a ball-change gear box produced in 1930 As with the type 38A, the production run was approaching 50 units.
43A A 1931 Americanised version of the standard 43 usually fitted with a two-seater and dickey body. About 30 were made.
43A Re-engined version produced in1928 and later given the type number 47.
46S A SUPERCHARGED version of one of Ettore’s favourite models. Eighteen are believed to have been produced.
50B1 A significantly redesigned version of the type 50 motor : 4739cc, 84x107mm supercharged.
50B2 As above but only 4433cc, 84x100mm.
50B3 As above but only 2982cc, 78x78mm.
50B470D Designation for handed 50B aircraft engine – D = droit (right hand).
50B470G As above. G = gauche (left hand).
50BI A significantly redesigned version of the type 50 motor : 4739cc, 84x107mm supercharged.
50BII As above but only 4433cc, 84x100mm.
50BIII As above but only 2982cc, 78x78mm.
Note The same type 50B engines are referred to in different ways by different sources, e.g. The Bugatti Trust refers to 50B2 whereas Conway refers to 50 BII. However, the latter use of Roman numerals would not be normal Molsheim practice.
50S SPORT version of type 50. The engine drawings were prepared in January 1934 with the chassis drawings following from 10th October 1934.It had IFS and a V shaped radiator. Only one chassis was built before the project was aborted in favour of the type 57. It was however completed by the late Uwe Hucke
50T The 1933 long wheelbase (3.3m)Touring version of standard type 50. The last 20 type 50s built were to this specification
51A The 60 x 66mm stroke 1.5 litre, 158 bhp version of the 187 bhp 2.3 litre type 51 The 51A was produced between 1932 and 1936.
51C The 88mm stroke 2 litre, 165 bhp version of the 187 bhp 2.3 litre type 51. The 2 litre 51 was listed for sale from 1930 (for 165,000 fr. as against 140,000fr. for the 35C, but whether the C designation was used by the factory is uncertain.
57A The designation used on early drawings relating to the 3.3 litre production car to differentiate it from the earlier 2.8 litre prototype designs.
57B The designation attached to the series 1 chassis plans dated 18th July 1933.
57bis ‘bis’ refers to the second series. (Comment from Richard Day : “I believe that the first T57 (with I.F.S.) was initially denoted T57. The revised version was initially denoted as T57 bis. Once the T57 bis got going the ‘bis’ was dropped and then an A was added to the first version to differentiate it from the production car. My reason for this idea is that the early drawings look as though the A has been added later, in pencil, not in the same hand as the original lettering”.
57C The supercharged version of the 57 introduced in 1936.
57G Tank bodied 57S 1936
57GR A sports version of the type 57. The‘Grande Raid’ designation may be the factory designation equivalent to the T and TT suffixes used by the UK importer for upgraded 1935 Ulster Tourist Trophy chassis.
57S The lowered short-chassis version of the type 57 normally identified by its “V” shaped radiator
57S 40 A design for a 4 seat sports car with a 57S engine and a 4 litre type 50B alloy block engine.
57S 45 The 1937 enlarged racing version with a 4.5L 50B engine
57SC Supercharged version of type 57S
57T See 57GR above.
57TT See 57GR above.
59EB A design, presumably executed by Ettore personally for the fitment of a type 59 engine to a type 35 chassis.
68B A 369.5cc proposed production version of the original 318cc prototype engine fitted to the type 68.
68E A rotary valve version of the 380cc small-car engine,designed after Ettore’s death, by his son; Roland.
72B A revised design of the 1942/3 type 72 cycle engine project. Amongst the many revisions are a side mounted supercharger.
73A The road going single overhead cam version of the wartime four cylinder 1.5 litre concept
73B A redesign project carried out to improve the 73A (or the 73C twin cam design ?).
73C The 1945 supercharged twin cam racing version of the type 73 theme.
74T A design project to use the 1944 type 74 4 cylinder steam engine project in multiples of 2 or 4.
101C Supercharged version.of the 101.
:

"Bugatti Type 46 & 50" by Barrie Price may not be the best researched book published, but does include a list of chassis showing that several were delivered to Bucar.

So the T50S, like the T57S45, was little more than a design drawing. Bugatti never sold a car called a T50S. A T50, yes. A T50T, yes. And several engines were called 50B, yes. But no T50S. Glad that's been cleared up then.

I tell you, that Hugh Conway was a very smart man. One or two of his works and absolutely anyone who can read English can look like a real historian.

Well that's how I create the illusion at any rate. So, herewith then Johan's Final Word :

There is not now a Bugatti T50S.

There never has been a Bugatti T50S.

And but for the Grace of Uwe Hucke, this misunderstanding would never have arisen.

Courtesy of Conway, Johan has spoken.

FIN

Guide Bugatti by Maurice Sauzay:

Type 46 and 46S: empattement 3,50m

Type 50 : empattement 3,10m

Type 50T: empattement 3,55

update: http://www.bugattibuilder.com/wiki/inde ... itle=50126 < T50

And my pompousness teeters on the brink of humility. Excuse me, Conway calls .................

Ah yes, here we are : Great Marques, Bugatti by Hugh Conway, pp 68-69.

Type 46/46S Tourer
Wheelbase :
3.5m (11ft 5 3/4in)
Track :
1.4m (4ft 7in)

Type 50 Grand Sport
Wheelbase :
3.1m (10ft 2in)
3.5m (11ft 5 3/4in)
Track :
1.4m (4ft 7in)

Any more arguing and so help me, I shall get out Magnum and Pur Sang. You have been warned.

Thanks Christian, I am enjoying this - go on, quote someone else, my pomposity is restored to full dudgeon.

Johan Buchner
Founder-member of the Conway Is Great Society, aka Gits.

According to Barrrie Price's "Big Bugattis" book (p.82) the car Costantini is leaning against is a type 50.

The list of type numbers with suffixes was prepared by UK BOC member Keith Mountain and is an extract from his article in "Bugantics".

to see : http://www.bugattibuilder.com/wiki/inde ... nown-400_Y

Thanks Bugatti 69 - superb as usual. I have a feeling this will not remain a mystery for long.

Thanks to you too Legaleagle, I've had no earthly reason for looking at Barrie Price's underwhelming little tome for the longest time, but your post rang a bell - you are right, bottom of page 82 there is the photo. I quote the caption verbatim : "Works driver Meo Costantini with a Type 50 Coupe."

I now quote from Conway's Grand Prix Bugatti 2004, p220. "Meo Costantini was a member of a distinguished Venetian family and had some experience in Italy with a Brescia Bugatti. He remained at Molsheim for several years, driving and running the racing department - without pay it is said."

So "works driver Meo Costantini" is true, just like it is true that the car is a Coupe, it's just that it is not the whole truth. That body style is known as a Convertible Coupe, or a Drop head Coupe. A Coupe has a fixed roof. But Barrie Price's genius as researcher and historian is even more brilliantly illustrated on pp 66-67, again I quote verbatim : "Type 46, chassis no. 46571. A late Drop Head (Head is wrong, it should be head, lower case 'h' - this author's note) Coupe by Brainsby-Woollard at Prescott in the early fifties and the same car now in the USA." Four photographs beautifully illustrating the late Dr. Williamson's T50, chassis no. 50133. As the photos show - short chassis, no "S" and I say that body is a Convertible Victoria. Genius, pure genius. I do not trust a word Barrie Price writes, including, "is," "and," "they" & "them."

Now onto someone not suffering delusions of mediocrity ; earlier this evening I received a communiqué from a contributor, who not only owns a bodacious collection of Bugattis but who is also a talented restorer and he informs me that the T46 and T50 can be distinguished from one another by the radiator cap. As you can imagine, this drove into a frenzied comparison of photographs - result? I think the T46 has a slightly smaller diameter radiator cap and/or it is slightly higher/lower. Its driving me nuts. Can somebody please sooth my torment and tell what exactly I am seeing/missing?

This is fun - still. Please don't stop now.

Johan

The 2000 UK Bugatti Register includes a list of all the known types and sub-types. No mention of the 50S. I'm told the list was prepared by the Bugatti Trust.

And yet, the Bugatti Trust Album 13 contains pictures of cars described as 50S.

Yes I saw that - most confusing. By the way, does anyone have a photo of the one-off T50S completed by Uwe Hucke?

Last night I spent some quality time with the esteemed Mr. Jonathan Wood's work and discovered a fascinating essay on Meo Costantini. It would seem he was a close friend of Ettore's and a great help to Jean, and then one day quietly left Molsheim, never to return again.

Also discovered some interesting new facts about Ettore's relationship with France and Italy - short version , he was born Italian and he loved the country of his birth, but he chose to love France and considered his heirs to be proudly French.

I do not wish to stir the pot about Ettore and the War again, but from what I can gather the post-war mood in France was ugly. Let us leave it at that shall we?

Now about those radiator caps - anything?

In less than 2 hours I shall be on leave - pure bliss.

Kind Regards
Johan.