Technical drawings T35

octagonfox · **Joined:** Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:05 pm **Posts:** 232

Hello,

I'm looking for technical drawings of the T35. Does anyone have these or know where to find them?

Regards, Jeroen

Herman · **Posted:** Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:11 pm

What kind of drawings are you looking for?

jakey_too · **Posted:** Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:13 am

The Bugatti Trust has parts lists and drawings.

The sale of copies (sheet by sheet) is an important source of income for the Trust.

Forum member Whitney Paine has extensively studied the Trust's T35 drawings for his project to create a 3d solid CAD model of the T35 in Solidworks.

I believe the Trust drawings are copies. I do not know where the originals are.

Whitney Paine · **Joined:** Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:24 pm **Posts:** 154

I might be wrong, but I think the originals are stored by the Trust. I do not know where.

However, you can buy plans that they have scanned onto their computer. from memory, they have got 21,000 - yes, 21,000 - plans scanned.

SB

Johan Buchner · **Posted:** Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:12 pm

As a librarian I think the above mentioned can do with some clarification : Original documents, especially those pertaining to the automobile industry has value on two fronts; firstly there is the historic nature of the original document itself, for instance, I believe Pracht's handwritten notes about production was written in cheap note-books, some of it in pencil. Cheap paper, even in the 1930's contained a high acid content which causes those brown spots you may have seen in some old(ish) books, and the oil from human hands erase pencil marks quite quickly. The only way to preserve these documents is in a dark environment, and sprayed with water every now and then until such time that technology finds a way of extracting the acid (unlikely). The same goes for most of the invoices, blue-prints and those hand written design ideas of Ettore's. They are simply too fragile to be used by more than a select group of highly trusted researchers.

Luckily the information contained on or in these formats have mostly been transcribed or copied in some form or another, and it is this information which is of such value to historians, amateur and professional alike. To give an example, Ettore Bugatti's famous letter to Dr. Espanet in 1913 is of no use to me, the hand writing is near illegible and I don't speak the language, but the contents of this letter has been translated by Hugh Conway and while interesting in itself, it is only when seen against the background of Norbert Steinhauser's research into the origins of the U16 aero engine that one begin to realise that when Ettore spoke of his super luxury car, he was most probably referring to an existing design, at least as far as the engine was concerned. Suddenly this a profound communication, giving a real glimpse into the awesome imagination and ambition of Ettore

The same goes for the technical drawings Jeroen is looking for, it is the design he needs, the original documents should be carefully preserved and not used. And only one master copy must be made from these originals, all subsequent copies to be made from this master ; repeated exposure to the harshness of the photocopying process is equally damaging.

Preserving such documentation is an absolute necessity, but it does seem a pity that some within the Bugatti community believe this to mean that the contents itself should be kept secret as well. I do not know whether the story about the Registrar of the B.O.C. not having access to the certain documents is true or not, but let us hope it is false. The wider knowledge is spread the more detail gets added, sometimes from the most unlikely sources.

After all, Wiki is beginning to look awfully like a world register for surviving Bugattis, and we are all welcome to contribute. To say that knowledge is power is to sell it short - knowledge is joy, knowledge is happiness. I am living proof that Bugattis can be a profoundly satisfying obsession even without the means to afford one.

Still wouldn't mind owning the Bachelier T54 though.

Kind Regards
Johan

Greg Morgan · **Joined:** Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:10 am **Posts:** 334

Indulging myself as I very rarely get the chance to nowadays, a couple of years ago I decided to research into the development of the Type 41 roadwheel, from the various prototypes to the actual production version.
I was at the Bugatti Trust showing off a replica Type 35 magneto cap that I had just produced for Tim Dutton amongst various very old school club members and asked if it would be possible to have copies of the factory drawings of the afore mentioned wheel. It was quite obvious that I had raised a bit of an uncomfortable question. The collection of drawings are rare and historic and to my mind it is a little bit like the online photos in the Bugatti Trust with the big watermarks on them- not to be given out willy-nilly.
About a year later I was kindly given a set of copies on the understanding that they remain the property of the Bugatti Trust and that I only publish the findings in the Trust newsletter.
I do sympathise with them though- I have some very rare period shots of Bugatti Royales that I am strangley covetous about and cannot bring myself to publish.

Herman · **Posted:** Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:26 am

Who has the copyright on these materials then? I believe after 50 years or so copyright is suspended, so basicly the information (not the carrier of the information, the original, the blueprint) becomes "shareware".

Knowledge is the only thing that multiplies when it is shared amongst others...

Herman · **Posted:** Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:32 am

Oh, and to Greg: great model you made from the T41 wheel:

<a href="http://www.bugattibuilder.com/photo/albums/userpics/10189/894-9418_IMG.JPG"><img src="http://www.bugattibuilder.com/photo/albums/userpics/10189/normal_894-9418_IMG.JPG" alt="1/8 scale Type 41 wheel"></a>

<a href="http://www.bugattibuilder.com/photo/albums/userpics/10189/IMG_9552.JPG"><img src="http://www.bugattibuilder.com/photo/albums/userpics/10189/normal_IMG_9552.JPG" alt="1/8 Scale Type 41 wheel"></a>

<a href="http://www.bugattibuilder.com/photo/albums/userpics/10189/IMG_9660.JPG"><img src="http://www.bugattibuilder.com/photo/albums/userpics/10189/normal_IMG_9660.JPG" alt="1/8 scale Type 41 Wheel "></a>

Johan Buchner · **Posted:** Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:55 am

Hi Herman

Yes, I think you are right, copyright becomes moot after 50 years. However, should a document, blueprint, notebook etc. be a one-off and be private property, the owner is quite within his right to keep both document and all information contained within as private as he, she or they please.

Having said that, it is amazing just how generous most people are - I believe Uwe Hucke made a point of making his archives available to researchers, and the sheer amount of documentation Norbert Steinhauser was able to include in his work is nothing short of remarkable. To give an example, the correspondence between Ettore and Jean during the early thirties has prints of the original hand written letters, a printed (i.e. legible!) transcription in French, and translated in the English language supplement.

I agree, it is a pity that some documents are kept secret, but at least they are being preserved. And given enough time all should be revealed. What interests me though, are the lost documents. Does anyone know more about how much were destroyed and/or lost, not only during WWII, but also in the confusion during the eventual liquidation of the firm?

Thanks.
Johan

PS. Your work is wonderful Greg. It's not complete though, where are the chassis, axles, engine and coachwork then? :twisted:

Whitney Paine · **Joined:** Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:24 pm **Posts:** 154

I am amazed that so much has survived.

Speaking as someone who clears out most documents at the point it is not legally required to keep them, it occurs to me that if I was ever researched a massive amount of info has been lost for ever.

Sites like Internet archives help a little. Here you can enjoy see Bugattibuilder from it's inception, progressing through to today:

http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www ... uilder.com

Re people holding onto documents, my experience and I think the experience of people who have handed out information to third parties is that in the vast amount of cases, it is one way traffic and even worse, causes negative implications for the person handing out the info.

To focus on Bugatti, but without naming individuals/organisations it is obvious that a number of people have benefitted from the largesse of people possessing info on Bugatti only for that help to not be acknowledged at all or used for commercial purposes with no benefit to the supplier and against the express wishes of the supplier when the info was given.

It makes you feel jaded and less keen to help than would be the case if even a brief note saying thank you was given (as an example) or if people kept to their word.

Also, and this is my most important point, how many people have given info back? Using myself as an example, this site, The Bugatti Trust, Aston Martin Heritage Trust and Rolls Royce Owners Club to name but a few have all benefited from me sharing info I have discovered or created. I know lots of regular posters here do this, but it is not typical.

Human nature sucks at times.

SB

Herman · **Posted:** Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:26 am

Well, you make apoint, Johan. And that is what worries me:

Some person might sit on a very nice collection of photos, documents or whatever. That person passes away. The heirs have no clue of what they have in hands, and toss it away... Happens more than you might imagine...

Johan Buchner · **Posted:** Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:55 am

You make some very valid points Stuart, generosity often gets exploited. As you said, human nature sucks at times. And worse, it's a constant, no change in the foreseeable future there then.

However, I remain at heart an optimist ; the interests of the common good must surely prevail? Eventually. Maybe.

Herman I fear you may be right ; the problem is compounded by the fact that many items, while being of great historical interest, has little financial value. Heirs tend to cash in their inheritances, if they can't sell it, they throw it away.

Stuart is right, human nature does suck. More often than not.

Regards
Johan

Whitney Paine · **Joined:** Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:24 pm **Posts:** 154

Thanks.

Sticking my head above the parapet, I would single out one group of people as being information parasites. The Motor trade.

As a group they clamour most aggressively for info or offer up proxies to get the information they need, but any knowledge they obtain is withheld.

All one way traffic and symptomatic of the type of people they are.

An exception is Raffaelli who while freely acknowledging the wheeling and dealing he was involved with, has divulged a fantastic amount of info.

SB

S.H.Olmès · **Joined:** Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:56 am **Posts:** 82

It is indeed exceptional how much info has survived, pity that some only sit on it, and others share it.

Let's get back to Octagonfox's question; what does he need; just an overview drawing for the making of a miniature model, or exact part drawings to replicate some parts??

octagonfox · **Joined:** Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:05 pm **Posts:** 232

Great, back to my question.

Well, I am looking for technical drawings to be able to create a replica T35. Now I can hear some people laughing, no I'm not going to do it myself.
A friend of mine is contemplating building a replica. He needs the drawings to see if it is possible, what parts he can make himself or what he has to buy.

In addition to the discussion above, yes, there are maybe people who take advantage of someone else. But I think that shouldn't stop us from sharing information on Bugatti.
Regarding rights, the Bugatti factory is no more, so please publish all the information that is available. Why hide something?
This doesn't mean handing over the pre-war documents etc., but digitalise this information and distribute it. The goal of the Trust as i understood is to make the study of the works of Ettore and Jean possible. You don't achieve this goal if you hide the information.

Regards, Jeroen

Technical drawings T35

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