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The Bugatti type 52 (or should we say type "Baby")
http://www.bugattibuilder.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1301		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  Herman [ Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:43 am ]
Post subject:  The Bugatti type 52 (or should we say type "Baby")
When at Retromobile, I was browing a book which claimed the type number for the type 52 was wrong. I would like to make this the central topic for digging out this matter.

Do we have available factory documentation, stating "type 52". All I could find was type "baby"

<a href="http://www.bugattibuilder.com/photo/albums/userpics/10003/225/Bugatti_Type_52_010.jpg"><img src="http://www.bugattibuilder.com/photo/albums/userpics/10003/225/normal_Bugatti_Type_52_010.jpg" alt="Bugatti Type 52 010"></a>

Concluding from this (small) picture, I might conclude that type "baby" is more correct then type 52. Of course unless someone else has other evidence.
If I am correct, who gave it the type 52 number? And what should type 52 be then?

And also important:
I am looking for drawings of the Bugatti type "baby". I have been able to buy a large amount of parts, which should make the Bugatti type "baby". However, I am missing at least the wheels and tyres, half a rear axle and the internals of the steering box. I know Pur Sang has all these available, but I also have options to produce them here. Besides that, there is nothing wrong with trying to get as much info as possible...
Author:  Lazarus [ Mon Feb 16, 2009 1:42 pm ]
Post subject:  The Bugatti type 52
I have in front of me the original drawing in full size [one metre by two metres ! ] of the baby,dated 20,may 1927. It is clearly marked "Type Baby" and not "type 52" I had never realised before but it is possible that indeed it was not T52 after all. It is also interestingly modified with the longer wheelbase and dated for this modif.
Author:  J.J.Horst [ Mon Feb 16, 2009 1:55 pm ]
Post subject: 
What I understand, I believe from Steinhauser's book, but I don't have it here at the moment, the T52 was a new version of the T46, with a 4-valve head with parallel valves. I'm not sure if it was a twin cam or a single cam head.
Author:  Johan Buchner [ Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:43 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quite correct Jaap, Steinhauser's English Translation (p.154) talks about a "flat" 4-valve cylinder head for the T46 engine, called Type 52, which was never adopted. Instead Jean's T50 went into production.

How did the "baby" end up with the Type number 52?

Johan
Author:  Lazarus [ Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: T52 or not T52
J.J.Horst wrote:
What I understand, I believe from Steinhauser's book, but I don't have it here at the moment, the T52 was a new version of the T46, with a 4-valve head with parallel valves. I'm not sure if it was a twin cam or a single cam head.

The existance of a drawing of a never built cylinder head does not convince me.Conway uses T52 back in 1963 in Le Pur Sang des automobiles, as does L'Ebe Bugatti in her book,If Ettore's daughter uses T52 for the "Baby" then I am happy with it.And how can the T52 be replaced by the T50? The type numbers are usually fairly cronological,52 comes after 50 not before.I did once hear that Rolands T52 was built by the workers as a surprise both to Roland and to Ettore as well.If there is any truth to this then it might explain why the type number was alloted later after Ettore decided that this might be a useful money earner.Isn't it surprising just how little we really know about Bugattis ! :oops:
Author:  Johan Buchner [ Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Bugatti type 52 (or should we say type "Baby")
Lazarus versus Norbert Steinhauser. This is going to be such fun. From what I understand Ettore's cylinder head was designed after Jean's one (Explaining the higher Type number). In Norbert's book the extensive and passionate communication between father and son about the future direction of Bugatti is featured in full. The way I understand it, Ettore believed that everything about Bugatti should be unique, and I further gather that he was not overly pleased with Jean using a design so closely based on that of the Miller. This seems a little rich to me, after all was Ettore totally innocent of being "influenced" by other designers? Then again, I could be misinterpreting Steinhauser.

Either way, the one thing better than irritating a stranger, is needling a good friend, so Lazarus Dear Friend, I do believe you are mistaken. :shock:

Like I said, this is going to be fun.

Johan
Author:  Lazarus [ Mon Feb 23, 2009 7:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Bugatti type 52 (or should we say type "Baby")
You are certainly right Johan.Needless to say however I shall continue to use T52 for a small car actually built and sold,rather than for a cylinder head that never saw the light of day !! :D :D :D
Author:  Greg Morgan [ Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Bugatti type 52 (or should we say type "Baby")
Surely the Baby Bugatti came from the 1920's and predates by a few years the twin cam Type 50 which was a thirties design.
I had never thought of it before because I just assumed it was the accepted facts, but now I cannot see any way that the Baby could be called Type 52.
Author:  J.J.Horst [ Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Bugatti type 52 (or should we say type "Baby")
Why stick to old believes when new evidence comes up to show that things are different?

Somewhere in history somebody stuck T52 on the baby (and this was NOT Bugatti!).

We now know that T52 is this new 4-valve 5-litre engine design. Stick to that!

For a long time people believed that both engines in the Bugatti airplane had different turning directions. We now know for sure that this is not the fact. Do you go on believing it?

That's nice about Bugatti history, something new to learn all the time!
Author:  xlr8by [ Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Bugatti type 52 (or should we say type "Baby")
I will be looking at a "baby" or Type 52 whatever we choose to call it, this weekend. Where would I look for the chassis number? This one is all original except for the tires, and is not I repeat not for sale! I don't want to get e-mails asking about it. I will provide information for the wiki if I find the number.
Erik
Author:  Lazarus [ Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Bugatti type 52 (or should we say type "Baby")
xlr8by wrote:
I will be looking at a "baby" or Type 52 whatever we choose to call it, this weekend. Where would I look for the chassis number? This one is all original except for the tires, and is not I repeat not for sale! I don't want to get e-mails asking about it. I will provide information for the wiki if I find the number.
Erik

Tyres are spelt with a "Y" lol The chassis number is on a circular plate like a dogs collar tag ! It is soldered inside the radiator,and no I am not kidding.I have a box of these [ex molsheim] tags.They came with the molsheim spares. :lol: 8)
Author:  J.J.Horst [ Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Bugatti type 52 (or should we say type "Baby")
I remember seeing numbers behind the seat, when you pull the backrest forward, there should be the number stamped in the metal.

Can't find a picture at the moment to prove that.

Most of the numbers I saw were in the 300 range, usually accompanied by an "A"

And: tell friends and family you go see a "Baby", reactions will be very different from when you tell you go look for the chassis number of a T52!
Author:  xlr8by [ Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Bugatti type 52 (or should we say type "Baby")
For an american there is no "y" haha. I'll let you guys know what number(s) I am able to find. Thanks for your help guys!
Erik
PS What else was included with the molsheim spares?
Author:  Lazarus [ Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Bugatti type 52 (or should we say type "Baby")
xlr8by wrote:
For an american there is no "y" haha. I'll let you guys know what number(s) I am able to find. Thanks for your help guys!
Erik
PS What else was included with the molsheim spares?

by the time i ended up with the remains of the parts bought by the BOC from molsheim there was nothing of any real interest.Sadly the interesting bits for T251/252/253 were sold off as souveneers ! for peanuts, Mr.Q and a well known gent from Suisse bought each a cylinder head casting for T251 [unmachined ] 15 years later Mr.Q. wanted £5000 for his,and the other gent wanted an original GP frame :P :P :P .I happen to know that they paid less than £50 each.There are still hundreds of small parts,little springs,ends of rods for brakes,rubber bits,80 supercharger gaskets for the very late cars,T57 gears,gearchange rods,hundreds of the link pieces that join the springs in brake [ sorry break ] drums.The best bit is the boxes which they came in,grey wooden boxes.Every Bugatti owner in the UK has one or two.Ivan Dutton even put one on E bay recently.There must have been thousands of them in the Bugatti stores.I wish I could have seen it,and nobody seems to have photographed the stores.The chassis plates [dogtags] from the Babys just about sum up the value of the parts that remain,however if anyone wants to have a genuine baby chassis plate.....I take any sort of money ! :D :D :D
Author:  Lazarus [ Fri Mar 06, 2009 9:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Bugatti type 52 (or should we say type "Baby")
I was recently offered some photos of T251 Bugattis.One of which has the motor at the wrong end of the car ! :D Is this fine looking car an EMW [look at the lorry at left] I know that der bis der sehr clever German friends on the site so maybe they can help?

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