The Bugatti Type 57 SC Atlantic of Mr Jacques Holzschuch is not #57453 but #57473.
#57473 at the Juan-les-Pins Concours d’Elegance, 31th March 1937
Click to Enlarge
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| Author: | BertKanne [ Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Bugatti's at Pebble Beach 2009 |
Bugatti, along with Bentley get center stage this year at The Pebble Beach Concours. Does anyone know what Bugatti's will be highlighted? Will the 6 Royales make an appearance for only the second time in history? Are any Bugatti's expected on the Tour? |
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| Author: | Johan Buchner [ Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bugatti's at Pebble Beach 2009 |
Hi Bert Welcome to the Forum. If the Royales gather in 2009 it will be the 3rd time they do so, after the 1985 Pebble Beach event they were all brought together again at the Schlumpf Museum a few years later, but I'm not sure what year it was. As to which Bugattis will be featuring this year, I've heard surprisingly little so far but I can tell you of one Bugatti that will not win this year : 57473 The unconfirmed rumours (they tend to be the juiciest) are that the current owner was sold a fake, by Lukas Huni I believe. No amount of 'restoration' by the witless Paul Russell will ever make 57473 original again, the chassis is new, as is the wood frame supporting some original body panels (the car was hit by a train, to straighten those panels will require more work than Mt. Rushmore) the engine is not original to this car, nor is the scuttle I believe. Apparently the organisers of Pebble Beach bluntly informed the owner that they will not consider the third Atlantic as a serious contender for Car of the Show. Poor guy, can you imagine how humiliating it must be to have his expensively bought Bugatti exposed as a fake? And then to have some snotty impoverished peasant like myself ridiculing his gullibility can't be that great either. But at least I'm having a lot of fun, which is really all that matters if you think about it. Congratulations Senor Gonzales, you are now in possession of the most expensive replica Bugatti ever! Look on the bright side, they're going to love you at the Molsheim Festival - 57473-R will be one of the most original cars present! My Job is so Done. Johan Buchner |
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| Author: | Lazarus [ Fri Jul 17, 2009 5:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bugatti's at Pebble Beach 2009 |
Nice to see you are still having the weetabix every morning Johan.LOL |
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| Author: | Johan Buchner [ Fri Jul 17, 2009 8:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bugatti's at Pebble Beach 2009 |
What? No outrage? No threats? No insults? First I get gentle irony from you Lazarus, and then I get 2 very polite pm's. Polite private messages!!?! What does a guy have to do to keep his reputation as trouble-maker? Could somebody please take offense at my dismissing of 57473 as a replica? I'm dying for a good fight. Senor Gonzales, anything? I repeat, your car's a replica. Where's the rage, the anger, the law-suits? Must you Europeans be so very civilised? Mr Hunni? Mr. Russell? Anyone? Nothing. Crap. Johan |
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| Author: | Lazarus [ Fri Jul 17, 2009 9:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bugatti's at Pebble Beach 2009 |
Dear Johan,I avoid talking about things that I know nothing about [and there are many ] If this is the T57 Atlantique hit by a train on a level crossing years ago that was totaled and left in a railway yard for years then there was not much left was there? Surely we should feel sadness and sympathy for the poor man who has bought it IF he was conned into believing that it was totally real.I was once conned by a well known australian Bugatti owner into buying a load of rubbish advertised in the BOC newsletter as genuine parts.It cost me £57.500 which at the time and for me was part of my pension,and a great deal of money.Please direct your efforts at the seller [if he misrepresented the car ] and spare a thought for the buyer.You will be pleased to hear that the T251 project presses on , The next trip to the foundry will be with the head patterns for the T251.The block patterns were missing two coreboxes which caused a slight hickup which is being sorted. The head patterns are happily complete. |
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| Author: | GCL-Wales [ Sat Jul 18, 2009 7:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bugatti's at Pebble Beach 2009 - Car 57473 |
Can anyone confirm the spelling of the name of the first owner of 57473 ? HOLZSCHUCH, Jaques (?).The original owner of the third Bugatti Atlantic produced; (car 57473) which appeared at the Juan-de-Pins Concours d’Elegance accompanied by Madame Holzschuch on March 31st 1937. He is thought to have retained the car until 1946 when it was sold to Jules Boichard in Monaco. (See "Bugantics" 68/4/24). ( "Bugatti Type 57S" : “After the war the Jewish couple did not appear again as customers, so that he (Noel Domboy) fears that they were killed in a concentration camp by the Nazis”).* (In his article in the Bugatti Trust “Newsletter” in Spring 2005 Richard Day gives the name as “Holzschuh” and in his letter published in “Bugantics” in Summer 2007 the German “Atlantic” specialist Dr. Borstel refers to “Holtsschuch"). |
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| Author: | Scuderia CC [ Sat Jul 18, 2009 8:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bugatti's at Pebble Beach 2009 |
The Bugatti Type 57 SC Atlantic of Mr Jacques Holzschuch is not #57453 but #57473. #57473 at the Juan-les-Pins Concours d’Elegance, 31th March 1937 Click to Enlarge |
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| Author: | Bugwrench [ Sat Jul 18, 2009 4:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bugatti's at Pebble Beach 2009 |
Molsheim delivery records mention Holzschuh as client. Bugwrench |
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| Author: | GCL-Wales [ Sat Jul 18, 2009 7:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bugatti's at Pebble Beach 2009 |
In Conway's "Magnum" his transcripition of delivery records give HOLTZCHUB, Price's transcription gives HOLTSZCHUCH. The actual records (shown on P.132 of The Bugatti Type 57S) give HOLZSCHUCH. |
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| Author: | Johan Buchner [ Mon Jul 20, 2009 12:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bugatti's at Pebble Beach 2009 |
Pierre-Yves Laugier spell the surname as follows : Jacques Holzschuch. Also according to Laugier Mr. Holzschuch did die towards the end of the war, possibly 06/12/1945, but not in a concentration camp. Mr and Mrs. Holzschuch were Swiss citizens, but I do not know whether they were Jewish. Apparently Holzschuch literally means 'wooden shoe.' Johan |
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| Author: | bugatti91 [ Mon Jul 27, 2009 3:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bugatti's at Pebble Beach 2009 |
| Author: | keesj [ Sun Aug 02, 2009 10:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bugatti's at Pebble Beach 2009 |
Dear All As far as the spelling is concerned: it is interesting to follow these discussions. I wonder whether in fifty years from now people will do the same with first owners of present day Ferraris or Veyrons. My general philosophy is always to start from official source documents, in this case birth or marriage documents. Although the factory Livre des Livraisons uses the spelling 'Holzschuh', Henri Pracht, the accountant of the factory, uses 'Holzschuch'. So it seems the typist made an error. Although I have not seen government documents I think Pierre Yves- as always- is correct. Attachment:
File comment: Spelling from Pracht and from the Livraisons spelling.jpg [ 13.65 KiB | Viewed 16274 times ] Thanks a lot, Christophe, for these wonderful pictures! However the present car is not the same as the original. Although it has a number of parts from the original it has to be considered a different car. It was built by Paul Andre Berson reportedly on a replica frame with some parts he had found in a pile of heap on the junkyard. He used engine 473 ex 57645 and the Carte grise of 57171 for its registration. However he could not get it to proper driving condition and he sold the unfinished product to Michel Seydoux. He in turn entrusted the car to the renowned restorer Andre Lecoq for a complete rebuild, who used the help of Paul Bracq and Paul Bouvot, incidentally two top designers from Peugeot. A number of spare parts originally considered beyond repair were kept, at a later date repaired and used during a later- third rebuild. The newly rebuilt car participated at the Centenaire in 1981 with Nicolas Seydoux as 57171 (participant # 119). Although the Molsheim content has gradually increased over time, I fear it still has to be considered as a different car. Kees Jansen |
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| Author: | Scuderia CC [ Fri Aug 14, 2009 10:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bugatti's at Pebble Beach 2009 |
Fantastic gallerie of the 2009 Pebble Beach Tour d'Elégance at Carmel : http://picasaweb.google.com/srslusso/81 ... irectlink#  
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| Author: | Patrick [ Fri Aug 14, 2009 10:26 pm ] | ||
| Post subject: | Re: Bugatti's at Pebble Beach 2009 | ||
Which chassisnr. is the lightblue over cream 57S Atalante which we can see on the pictures of the Tour d'élégance? Have a look here: http://images.google.nl/imgres?imgurl=h ... G%26um%3D1 (hope you'll find it...). And does anyone know which Aravis is on the pictures? regards, Patrick
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| Author: | Patrick [ Fri Aug 14, 2009 10:34 pm ] | ||
| Post subject: | Re: Bugatti's at Pebble Beach 2009 | ||
Regarding Aravis, I mean this one; or is it some special Stelvio? regards, Patrick
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