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 Post subject: Re: 2 real T43 chassis ?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:27 am 
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onebugatti wrote:
l

I am somewhat surprised to see that you still insist on calling "43186" a molsheim Bugatti.It is a replica.[/quote]

I need a time line here...... DS inspected how many chassis in Cannes connected to this story, one or two? And when? On March 15, 1999 he inspected one, why and who ordered that ? There had to be a pending sale for such an inspection. When did DS inspect 43186, as he said the car in Cannes was not 43186. How would he know if he did inspect it!

Once the inspection was done, and the money paid, was the bought property removed on site and lugged to the UK , or deal done and pick up later ? The possibilities of two original T43 chassis were never in the grapevine in 1999. Later, DS crawfishes on his positive ID's of 3/1999 when cornered on the subject ? Is that right? Did I miss something, or was there a flip-flop here when cornered with the rest of the La Resistance over this matter and a possible Fck-up in the professional examination ?[/quote]

Can you add to the timeline?

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 Post subject: Re: T43 article in Retroviseur july/aug 2010.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:31 am 
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ard wrote:
So in your opinion there are several of the Dovaz-car (43158) used in it? Would there be any way to prove it.

Are you being deliberately stupid or do you not understand english? I think this thread should be restricted to people who have actually worked on the car "43186" I believe that I can provide sufficient proof to satisfy a court of law that NO parts of 43158 were used in the construction of "43186".After thirty years of working on Bugattis I know my job fairly well,and Roger Hanower asked me to identify the car that he bought from Geordano.If it had been composed of parts of 43158 I would have discovered this.Rene Geordano used the "history" and historical photographs of 43158 to sell his replica "43186" to my friend Roger Hanower."43186" is as I have said several times a replica.You are not helping poor Dovaz by following this line.I would suggest that you look closely at what remains with Geordano.


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 Post subject: Re: T43 article in Retroviseur july/aug 2010.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 10:02 am 
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Herman wrote:
If hearsay is true, as the car is unsold, it will now be tested for metal composition (frame) as to determine the origins of the frame. I hope this will be done.

About a timeline:

I suggested the same, it is the only way to unravel this story. It would also be nice to see who adds what...

I guess I will make a start:

'43186'
19xx pops up at Corniere in parts (Kees Jansen file)
1973 sold to Giordano (Kees Jansen file)
1999 Geordano sells a half finished and incomplete T43 replica to Roger Hanower no connection to 43158.

Please copy and paste the above, and add what you have.


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 Post subject: Re: T43 article in Retroviseur july/aug 2010.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 12:09 pm 
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Image

I am not suggesting anything but this is a very strange way to stamp a BUGATTI chassisnumber I think.

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 Post subject: Re: T43 article in Retroviseur july/aug 2010.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 12:42 pm 
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It's not the poor Michel Dovaz. It's a feeling, that I have that stuff that is stolen from someone should come back to his owner.


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 Post subject: Re: T43 article in Retroviseur july/aug 2010.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 12:45 pm 
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Yes, it is a stupid way, but it does not prove that parts of 43158 are in it.

Still the timeline can be important.

*Some suggest that in the Giordano place only one T43 was present. True or false?
*David Sewell examined a car. Was it this particular car? David was not sure about the chassis. Other consulted specialists were sure it was genuine. John is sure it is a replica. (due to missing holes, good point). Were there 2 chassis?

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 Post subject: Re: T43 article in Retroviseur july/aug 2010.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 1:13 pm 
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arnoud8 wrote:
Image

I am not suggesting anything but this is a very strange way to stamp a BUGATTI chassisnumber I think.

The car is a fake,The chassis plate probably also.


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 Post subject: Re: T43 article in Retroviseur july/aug 2010.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 1:16 pm 
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ard wrote:
It's not the poor Michel Dovaz. It's a feeling, that I have that stuff that is stolen from someone should come back to his owner.

At last we agree totally with each other.I am definately of the opinion that attempts should be made to get the real 158 and get it to its [rather strange]owner.I have a feeling that 158 has not been separated into its parts.I believe that it is still together as one car.But it is not of course the replica 186.


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 Post subject: Re: T43 article in Retroviseur july/aug 2010.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 1:49 pm 
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At last we agree totally with each other.I am definately of the opinion that attempts should be made to get the real 158 and get it to its [rather strange]owner.I have a feeling that 158 has not been separated into its parts.I believe that it is still together as one car.But it is not of course the replica 186.[/quote]

The owner is not as strange as you think. Read our book "the fate of the sleeping beauties". It would be good if we got that beautifull T43 back on the street in stead of hiding it in a barn for some reason or another. I don't think Michel Dovaz would keep the car. He probably will sell it. But justice would have been done.

This kind of histories make me sad and angry at the same time.


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 Post subject: Re: T43 article in Retroviseur july/aug 2010.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 2:04 pm 
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Do I read it right:
1. The 186 is a fake.
2. Selling the so-called 186 Giordano showed photos and infos of the ex-Dovaz car 158.
3. There is a very loud rumour from different reliable sites, that the 158 is still at Giordano's, possibly in one peace

All you Bugatti owners. Imagine, that is was your car. What would you do.

All you Bugatti lovers. What do you think of a bunch of idiots who are mixing up cars, building fakes and even steal cars.

Isn't it tim to stop it.

Any suggestion


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 Post subject: Re: T43 article in Retroviseur july/aug 2010.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 2:49 pm 
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[quote="ard"]Do I read it right:
1. The 186 is a fake.
2. Selling the so-called 186 Giordano showed photos and infos of the ex-Dovaz car 158.
3. There is a very loud rumour from different reliable sites, that the 158 is still at Giordano's, possibly in one peace

All you Bugatti owners. Imagine, that is was your car. What would you do.

All you Bugatti lovers. What do you think of a bunch of idiots who are mixing up cars, building fakes and even steal cars.

Isn't it tim to stop it.

Yes,yes and yes.And as a Bugatti owner I would like to see stolen cars returned to their owners.


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 Post subject: Re: T43 article in Retroviseur july/aug 2010.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 2:52 pm 
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ard wrote:
At last we agree totally with each other.I am definately of the opinion that attempts should be made to get the real 158 and get it to its [rather strange]owner.I have a feeling that 158 has not been separated into its parts.I believe that it is still together as one car.But it is not of course the replica 186.


The owner is not as strange as you think. Read our book "the fate of the sleeping beauties". It would be good if we got that beautifull T43 back on the street in stead of hiding it in a barn for some reason or another. I don't think Michel Dovaz would keep the car. He probably will sell it. But justice would have been done.

This kind of histories make me sad and angry at the same time.[/quote]
M.Dovaz is very typically french.He prefered to have dozens of non running cars rather than one good working car.I know lots of M.Dovaz in france.


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 Post subject: Re: T43 article in Retroviseur july/aug 2010.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 2:57 pm 
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Since october 1990 Michel Dovaz hasn't any Bugattis. The nine he had at that time are al restored and at their new owners in blended condition.


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 Post subject: Re: T43 article in Retroviseur july/aug 2010.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 3:14 pm 
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blended? I hope it is splendid.

The only one in blended condition, is '43186'...

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 Post subject: Re: T43 article in Retroviseur july/aug 2010.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 3:50 pm 
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It's always good to have a joke. Of course I meant blended.

In the last version of Kees he says, that the parts of the so called 186 that were shown in the garage to Hanauer, weren't the parts, that he got.

In my oppinion two things have to be done:
1. An examination of the car that was on auction this weekend.
2. Find enough evidence so that Michel Dovaz is able to start a legal procedure again. He failed in the seventies, when Mr. Giordano could keep his things.


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