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T43 article in Retroviseur july/aug 2010.
http://www.bugattibuilder.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2102
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Author:  Herman [ Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: T43 article in Retroviseur july/aug 2010.

I guess you guys contact each other, and compare notes.

Author:  davids [ Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: T43 article in Retroviseur july/aug 2010.

An interesting document on the french FFVE site regarding "vehicles non roulant" cars off the road..Les nouvelles procedures..with the new SIV numberplates several things have changed slightly.
It does outline the mere title and not proof of ownership within the carte gris/ log book....and the legality of the title of the cessation paper..
I was not aware that if you take a vehicle off french roads, you have to declare it and also declare it is put back onto the road..[for example in long term restorations]
Vaguaries between Code civil relating to an "object=vehicle" and code de la route when it is in use...

Author:  ard [ Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: T43 article in Retroviseur july/aug 2010.

Dear John,
We are still investigating. Possible, that we have tocorrect some things as result of further info's and we will be glad to do so. But quite and totally wrong. Time will learn and it won't be long I suppose. You are welcome to join the mail-team in this case. Please send me your mailadres to ard@opdeweegh.eu and I will provide you with all the mailcorrespondence of the last two weeks and you are welcome to join the investigation or the discussion. To be honest: quite and totally wrong hurts a little and does not right to all the work, that several people, including Michel Dovaz, have done in the past days.

Author:  onebugatti [ Thu Nov 25, 2010 1:49 am ]
Post subject:  Goo goo g' joob

I remember the T43, and remember the deal - been in the cave - with the fox. At the time, it was said, that even the Guru was fooled. Then the champagne flowed. All of you are close, but no cigar - :|

It reminds me of a Beatles song.....
Quote:
Expert, texpert choking smokers, Don't you think the joker laughs at you? See how they smile like pigs in a sty, See how they snide....

Author:  Greg Morgan [ Thu Nov 25, 2010 9:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: T43 article in Retroviseur july/aug 2010.

Now that is cryptic. What the F*** are you on about?

Author:  Herman [ Thu Nov 25, 2010 9:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: T43 article in Retroviseur july/aug 2010.

Indeed. Tell us all, or tell us nothing at all. :)

Author:  J.J.Horst [ Thu Nov 25, 2010 4:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: T43 article in Retroviseur july/aug 2010.

Quite obvious in my opinion.

Giardano is just playing with everybody, and none of us, even the non-selfproclaimed experts (those who went to the Bugatti University that Herman refers to) will be able to unravel.

Using DNA techniques Dr. Watson can separate the new from the old, but he can not make any difference between identical twins (engine number 86 from 22)

One of the more cryptic songs from the Liverpool boys, that was.

Author:  sjordan47 [ Thu Nov 25, 2010 4:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: T43 article in Retroviseur july/aug 2010.

J.J.Horst wrote:
Quite obvious in my opinion.

Giardano is just playing with everybody, and none of us, even the non-selfproclaimed experts (those who went to the Bugatti University that Herman refers to) will be able to unravel.

Using DNA techniques Dr. Watson can separate the new from the old, but he can not make any difference between identical twins (engine number 86 from 22)

One of the more cryptic songs from the Liverpool boys, that was.


Please note from the lead sentence in his post that he is The Walrus.

Author:  Uwe [ Thu Nov 25, 2010 6:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: T43 article in Retroviseur july/aug 2010.

sjordan47 wrote:
Please note from the lead sentence in his post that he is The Walrus.


Correction: "I AM THE WALRUS"

Author:  ard [ Thu Nov 25, 2010 7:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: T43 article in Retroviseur july/aug 2010.

I fully agree with Jaap. There are to many rumours that lead to Giordano. Michel Dovaz tried with juridical steps in the seventies to get back the dismantled peaces of his T43. The numbers were gone. So they - although Dovaz had the Carte Grise of the car (#43158) and Giordano couldn't show it - could tell for sure, that it was the chassis and the parts of the #43158. So Giordano could keep the things. Technics are better these days. It would be good if things were settled once and for all. Either Giordano allows a specialist to take a closer look at the parts and the chassis or he contacts Michel Dovaz and settles the thing with him. With the carte grise he can sell the parts or the chassis. But only sunshine is for nothing.

Author:  onebugatti [ Thu Nov 25, 2010 8:07 pm ]
Post subject: 

ard wrote:
With the carte grise he can sell the parts or the chassis. But only sunshine is for nothing.


Giordano is a reasonable guy - an important member of La Resistance - ultra knowledgeable . I find him fair , those used in the food chain to him are often the problem. I think he pisses most people off because he doesn't sell and usually knows more than who is buying - usually the buyer is a chain of Plankton Brokers handling the deal for some novice busy person.

It's impossible to prove a theft in France in the case of parts of Bugatti's not carefully numbered and documented, listed as such in a theft report with no cloudy areas in the stew. It's the same way in Nigeria... tres difficult. It's their turf - they master it.

The possession of the Carte Gris is meaningless - as I explained it has no ownership value.

I suggest the parties with the lost sit with RG , open the first bottle in the case and start drinking. Who knows, they could get lucky and the truth be told. That's all you can expect - return of the property in the court would take decades and exceed the cost of the car.


If the car was broken up , assumption is not in the criminal code in France.

I think you all know about the Napoleonic Laws. Possession is 9/10th of the rule, the other 1/10th rule resides in Sicily and his name is Corleone.

If RG bought the parts - regardless of the prior situation (mortgaged, stolen, borrowed, pawned, abandoned for a mechanics bill, or tied in a partnership dispute re-defined ) - there is no crime here. Possession of stolen property in France is not a criminal matter -once the statue of limitations expires ( 7 years) .
:roll:

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Author:  ard [ Thu Nov 25, 2010 8:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: T43 article in Retroviseur july/aug 2010.

Another lyric of the Beatles:

Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see.
It's getting hard to be someone but it all works out.
It doesn't matter much to me.
(Strawberry fields)

In fact I was more a Stones fan:
Maybe then I'll fade away and not have to face the facts
It's not easy facin' up when your whole world is black
(Paint it black)

Author:  Herman [ Fri Nov 26, 2010 9:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: T43 article in Retroviseur july/aug 2010.

Latest on 43158 and 43186 by Kees Jansen (see attached)

-edit Herman-
I deleted this file, there is a new version later in this thread (on page 3)

Author:  onebugatti [ Fri Nov 26, 2010 2:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: T43 article in Retroviseur july/aug 2010.

Herman wrote:
Latest on 43158 and 43186 by Kees Jansen (see attached)


Wow, great work Kees. Bravo !

The rest out there is heresay, unless JB has hard facts - he can certainly can tell the difference of an original frame. But don't forget, a Fiat chassis will get you a Bugatti frame with the right metallurgical content. Once it's sand blasted with Mag dust, no lab could tell - not even NASA or the CIA.

Quote:
The long and winding road, That leads to your door, Will never disappear
I've seen that road before, It always leads me here, Lead me to your door. - PM


:lol:

Author:  Lazarus [ Fri Nov 26, 2010 8:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: T43 article in Retroviseur july/aug 2010.

It is somewhat difficult trying to pass off a replica frame as genuine ,especially when you forget to drill the holes for the rear shockabsorbers ! Genuine frames sometimes have more holes than they started with but seldom less.

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