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T43 article in Retroviseur july/aug 2010.
http://www.bugattibuilder.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2102
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Author:  J.J.Horst [ Mon Nov 29, 2010 3:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: T43 article in Retroviseur july/aug 2010.

Stirred, not Shaken

Author:  onebugatti [ Mon Nov 29, 2010 6:27 pm ]
Post subject:  T43 Stolen Cars

I would start here : before more and more Blah Blah.


Translate the police report and obtain the police file to see if the car was really stolen and what attempts over the years with police assistance did the owner take :shock: .

I question the theft now. If it had witnesses. How was the car stolen. If the owner exercised common recovery task to since it went stolen. All applies here to legal ownership and good faith. If the owner didnt pay a bill due on the car, and it was pushed outside, it's another can of worms.

There is a big deal Ferrari case in the media right now, involving a 15.000.000$ race car stolen from an old man 90 years old and sold to a famous Belgian dealer s who changed the serial number to conceal it under a counterfeit number . Once the true owner died he waffled :mrgreen: the number back to the one reported stolen ! European Law turned a eye on that - so far . Many of the rules and evidence are similar here.

Author:  Lazarus [ Mon Nov 29, 2010 6:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: T43 Stolen Cars

onebugatti wrote:
I would start here : before more and more Blah Blah.


Translate the police report and obtain the police file to see if the car was really stolen and what attempts over the years with police assistance did the owner take :shock: .

I question the theft now. If it had witnesses. How was the car stolen. If the owner exercised common recovery task to since it went stolen. All applies here to legal ownership and good faith. If the owner didnt pay a bill due on the car, and it was pushed outside, it's another can of worms.

There is a big deal Ferrari case in the media right now, involving a 15.000.000$ race car stolen from an old man 90 years old and sold to a famous Belgian dealer s who changed the serial number to conceal it under a counterfeit number . Once the true owner died he waffled :mrgreen: the number back to the one reported stolen ! European Law turned a eye on that - so far . Many of the rules and evidence are similar here.

Perhaps the law should be that someone should have to prove that he aquired the car legally and have a legitimate Document de cession from the last registered owner.If 43158 is in the south of france,I doubt that the current owner could prove legal ownership.

Author:  ard [ Mon Nov 29, 2010 6:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: T43 article in Retroviseur july/aug 2010.

There is a policerepport from 17 february 1975, when Michel repported the theft to the police in Paris. And Michel has the original Carte Grise.

Author:  Herman [ Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: T43 article in Retroviseur july/aug 2010.

A small addition to the Kees Jansen file: About the pile of parts in the lockup box in Nice.

Attachments:
PDF 43186 final version 291110.pdf [1.01 MiB]
Downloaded 645 times

Author:  onebugatti [ Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:45 am ]
Post subject:  The Legal Distance - a long walk

ard wrote:
There is a policerepport from 17 february 1975, when Michel repported the theft to the police in Paris. And Michel has the original Carte Grise.


Proof of Ownership - Defined, in association with this ''missing T43''

1. Certificate de Cession (original! )
2. Carte Gris ( for police ID only )
3. Copy of Theft Report and any and all investigation files and correspondence . These reports would have to clearly define the theft with NO LOOSE ends where it could be redefined as a CIVIL MATTER.

On reviewing the subject, a civil matter concerning this is out of the question. It would never be settled in France in the life-time of the owner. A criminal complaint is the only solution and that has to be based on real-time factual documented attestment of the car actually stolen - positively indentified and MORE than an experts opinion on which number is really the car . You need a victim, an object to recover that is positively ID'ed, a suspect , a confession and maybe even witnesses . This ''theft'' is not a real criminal matter threat - as the statue has expired already. It is now reduced to a recovery at best, and at a high cost. If the parties involved dealt in good faith when purchasing the parts, that could entitle them to ownership rights of real value.

This , in my opinion is an impossible case to recover through the legal remedies of The Republic. I venture to say that the owner at lost could never afford to proceed or produce the required effort and evidence for such a recovery.

On this, I close my opinions !

If you want to see a real recovery effort - try typing '''Stolen Ferrari 0384AM Swaters'' on google and read through how a crime can go the distance in the courts. :twisted:

Author:  Lazarus [ Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: T43 article in Retroviseur july/aug 2010.

onebugatti wrote:
Lazarus wrote:
It is somewhat difficult trying to pass off a replica frame as genuine ,especially when you forget to drill the holes for the rear shockabsorbers ! Genuine frames sometimes have more holes than they started with but seldom less.



Duh. Does that mean the frame you restored was positively missing holes?

If the frame used for this car was an unblown modified T38 it would have not had the holes for the supercharger support plates....The front of this frame convinced everybody but it was let down by poor work at the rear.I would be interested to see the metal checked.There is a suspicion that it was in fact a modified frame.What happened to the rear I do not know.

Author:  ard [ Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: T43 article in Retroviseur july/aug 2010.

The last few weeks I have spoken to and mailed with many people. It's obvious that the T43 parts, that Sewell saw in Cannes, weren't the same part, that were delivered to rebuild the #43186. It's obvious that the stolen T43 of Michel Dovaz (#43158) is in Cannes or at least important parts of it. It's a fact, that Michel Dovaz has the "Carte Grise" and the police repport of his stolen T43. And yet it seems not to be possible to stop these Mafia practices.

I admire the brand Bugatti, but I'm not a Bugattist pur sang ( My son Arnoud is, by the way). I'm just a simple automotive bookwriter, who earns his living as school principal. I admire prewar cars, I admire their technics and the way they look and drive. Bugatti and son were brilliant technicians and artists in the looks of their cars.
There must be a way to stop the barbarians who - for own profit - steal these magnificient cars and take them apart. Let's think about that.

I had a longer phonecall with Michel Dovaz. He doesn't want to go in a legal procedure and I think he is right. But it is a shame.

Monday the 20th december Arnoud and I will hand over to him in Paris the English book about his collection "the fate of the sleeping beauties". Dovaz is very pleased, that at the end justice is done to him.

But he still has a car in Cannes.

Author:  hhh [ Tue Dec 28, 2010 10:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: T43 article in Retroviseur july/aug 2010.

Does anyone has an address where it would all be in Cannes???
I'm just around the corner and am intrigued by this story.......

Author:  ard [ Tue Dec 28, 2010 11:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: T43 article in Retroviseur july/aug 2010.

HHH has the adress.

Monday a week ago Arnoud and I were in Paris at Michel Dovaz home. We handed over our English book to Michel. He was very pleased. With Michel and another man - he knew a lot about the story and the juridical stuff - we spoke a while about Michel's T43 (#43158) It will be very difficult to get back the car. Giordano got the car from Corniere. Corniere died a few years ago, so he can't tell anymore if Giordano knew that the car was stolen. I am convinced of that, but can't prove it. I am convinced, too, that Giordano could have made a mistake in all those years or spoke to much regarding the T43. If yes, I'll find out. If not, it would be good, that he contact Michel Dovaz to clear the case. He can do that by contacting me. There is a lot already known.

Author:  hhh [ Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: T43 article in Retroviseur july/aug 2010.

I will go there tomorrow; lets see what I find..........

Author:  ard [ Tue Dec 28, 2010 9:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: T43 article in Retroviseur july/aug 2010.

I wish you all the luck and I'm very curious!!!!

Author:  ard [ Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: T43 article in Retroviseur july/aug 2010.

Have you ever been there?

Author:  hhh [ Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: T43 article in Retroviseur july/aug 2010.

I found the house but nobody was there.
Once I'm back nr Cannes I will try again.

Author:  ard [ Sat Mar 26, 2011 12:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: T43 article in Retroviseur july/aug 2010.

If there's anyone, who can give me any information on the car please contact me.

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