44660

barttore · **Joined:** Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:38 pm **Posts:** 642

Someone seems to have found and bought 44660 and asks for more info on Jaap's site: http://www.bugattipage.com/bqueeste.htm.
(Maybe you've seen it yourself already on Jaap's site.)

It is not in the online register (or maybe it is in the unidentified T44 section). But maybe someone can help him: he seems to me to be a genuine enthousiast who has fulfilled his first ambition of buying a Bugatti and is now starting for his second: to restore it properly. Please post any info also over here for us to enjoy.

Johan Buchner · **Posted:** Thu Aug 12, 2010 1:33 pm

My sincerest congratulations to Mr. Jamie Simmons on fulfilling his dream of owning a Bugatti.

Barttore is correct ; no entry for 44660 in either the register (Or as I prefer : The World Register of Bugattis) nor the photo-albums. I have checked the following registers :

British Bugatti Register, David Sewell, 2nd Edition (1989?)
American Bugatti Register and Data Book, Sandy Leith, 2003
The Bugatti Register: Netherlands & Belgium, Jansen, Ploeg & Scholtens, V.I, 2005
The Bugatti Register: Netherlands & Belgium, Jansen, Ploeg & Veenenbos, V.II, 2008/9
The Swiss Bugatti Register, Hans Matti, 2008.

44660 is not mentioned in any of the above.

Question : Where does Mr. Simmons go from here?

Kind Regards
Johan Buchner

PS. I emailed a copy of the above to Mr. Simmons.

davids · **Joined:** Sat Dec 05, 2009 3:10 pm **Posts:** 143

Can one not trace back through prefectures in france, depending if there is any paperwork with the car... maybe fotos will turn up if there is anyone now who remembers
Quite an exciting adventure.

Lazarus · **Posted:** Thu Aug 12, 2010 4:06 pm

davids wrote:

Can one not trace back through prefectures in france, depending if there is any paperwork with the car... maybe fotos will turn up if there is anyone now who remembers
Quite an exciting adventure.

Really? I have also enough parts to make a T44,but also NO CHASSIS.So when is a T44 not a T44? And how can a chassis number be claimed where no chassis is present.I assume that none is present because the gentleman said that he is looking for a replacement chassis.This is clearly not necessary if a chassis [in ANY condition] is present.

Johan Buchner · **Posted:** Thu Aug 12, 2010 10:46 pm

Thank you Jean, I completely missed the bit about the replacement chassis.

This person is obviously either a crook or a fool, perhaps both, regardless, he sure as hell picked the right marque didn't he? And should you think I'm getting vitriolic because I feel like a fool for not spotting the chassis gaffe, you are indeed totally correct.

Kind Regards
Johan Buchner

J.J.Horst · **Posted:** Fri Aug 13, 2010 7:23 am

Gentleman, your discussions here go way out of hand, based on pure speculation, what's worse.

The reason why Jamie needs a new chassis, is because it is gone, literally.

This is the kind of barnfind which makes you envious of the Brescia submarine now in the Peter Mullin museum in Oxnard: The axles of the car are laying on the ground, because the bottom half of the wire wheels have disappeared. The chassis rails, from the engine mounts rearward have also disappeared. Bitten by the Bug, the rust Bug that is.

Without having seen any pictures, I believe that what may be salvable is the engine, maybe the axles and maybe the radiator. And the chassis plate.

It really is NOT APPRECIATED to call an enthusiast a load of names, just because he found the remains of a Bugatti, and tries to do something with them. Furthermore because you gentlemen do not have any further information whatsoever. Regardless the condition of the car, and if it will ever be restored or not, you self-proclaimed amateur historians should be happy that an additional part of Bugatti history is being unearthed, literally that is.

Herman · **Posted:** Fri Aug 13, 2010 7:45 am

I am curious to see pictures, must look impressive.

Also, I admit building a Bugatti from scratch, for money, then why pick a T44? 57453 jumps in my mind...

But pictures sure would help beat speculation.

hortig78rpm · **Joined:** Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:12 pm **Posts:** 247

jap !!!

great answer, and somethind I dont understand are the answers of johann and surprisingly john, whom I really admired for his past /present bugatti-works.
why should somebody, who has a chassis plate not need a replacement chassis??
maybe the original is gone ( just in that case), or only in parts ( how many farmers cut old chassis in parts to use them as farm -carts and so on...), or it is so damaged , that a rebuilt is not possible.....

instead of offering help to someone, who tries to save an original and "lost" car, naming him crook or fool, or even speculate about the truth of the question, when
no more details are available.
dear friends, thats not the way to treat somebody , sorry about that

kind regards
mike

davids · **Joined:** Sat Dec 05, 2009 3:10 pm **Posts:** 143

I have had a pleasant reply from Jamie about the t44
He also added a foto of the chassis plate for you all to see...which I have sent to Herman to deal with correctly.
He suggests that there are many more fotos but not available for general view at present.
I have asked for more information of the car and its condition if fotos are not yet available and suggest he join this site....
Read into this as you wish....
David.

Lazarus · **Posted:** Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:47 am

hortig78rpm wrote:

jap !!!

great answer, and somethind I dont understand are the answers of johann and surprisingly john, whom I really admired for his past /present bugatti-works.
why should somebody, who has a chassis plate not need a replacement chassis??
maybe the original is gone ( just in that case), or only in parts ( how many farmers cut old chassis in parts to use them as farm -carts and so on...), or it is so damaged , that a rebuilt is not possible.....

instead of offering help to someone, who tries to save an original and "lost" car, naming him crook or fool, or even speculate about the truth of the question, when
no more details are available.
dear friends, thats not the way to treat somebody , sorry about that

kind regards
mike

Oh dear what a slippery slope we tread with our toys.Even the brescia from the lake has a restorable chassis.......when is a car not a car? So you are saying that the mechanical parts from T44 that I bought from the Uno Ranch sale at goodwood are still a T44? And if I make a car with these parts then it is still the T44 from which these parts came from? I wish this were true as I have used these parts to make my daughters T37.With your kind interpretation [not incidentally shared by the registration authorities in any country that I know of] My daughters car should be already registered and on the road.I have never seen a Bugatti chassis so rusted that it cannot be repaired,If the back is rusty then you make a new back part and rebuild the chassis,Let us see photos of a complete rusty original Bugatti with numberplates and a credible history coming out of a barn in england,Not known or listed on any of the records of the BOC etc,well this would be like finding the long lost Bugatti Royale prototype chassis with damaged front axle .......I have built many Bugattis from parts and am not a hypocrite so I welcome another Bugatti on the road even when made from parts.[as long as these parts do not come from argentina of course] But a chassis plate does not a car make.

J.J.Horst · **Posted:** Fri Aug 13, 2010 10:47 am

John, my reaction was mostly to Johan's comment, which was very much in his old style, not very subtle to say the least.

Of course a car built up from only few original parts (does 3 out of 5 count with only the axles, engine, and radiator?) and the rest new or from another Bugatti is not the same as one that was totally original from the start. Still it is different than a "bitsa" using parts from all over the world, without any original chassis number to relate back to.

barttore · **Joined:** Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:38 pm **Posts:** 642

How sorry I am to have started this topic….

I agree totally that there is much too much focus on the bad guys recreating valuable cars and that this man is unfoundedly “slaughtered” from the beginning in this topic for doing something he is not at all planning to do…
Bad guys are a fact in our society but please remember they are a minority.

This man is totally honest in stating from the earliest beginning that he needs to replace the chassis, obviously he has his reasons for this – which we do not know. So I can only suppose he will be honest about too that when he has finished restoring the car.

Even if he decides not to keep whatever remains of the chassis and throws the remains in a skip for recycling into beercans: It is his decision – because he is the owner. As long as he stays honest as to what is original or replaced or recreated it is fine with me.

I only hope that he will recreate an original as possible car. For example with a body that was on originally (or even one that was on the car later in history if he prefers), but I would prefer him not putting on a body that has never been installed before- even if it is correct for a T44 Bugatti. But even then – it is his choice if he prefers and stays honest about it.

I sincerely hope we can now focus on what we can do to help him find the history of (the remains of) his car and even maybe even help him find a suitable replacement chassis (original or reproduction) or whatever else he needs.

And if the “battle” about originality must continue, please start another topic on the definition of originality – so I can skip reading that topic.
To me only honesty and preserving as much as possible - in the spirit of the original – counts.

Johan Buchner · **Posted:** Fri Aug 13, 2010 12:56 pm

Oh please. If the chassis is not salvageable then the Bugatti is not salvageable ; attaching an original chassis plate to a replica chassis is well, what exactly? It is not 44660, that's for sure. Chassis gone ; car gone.

As to those yet again decrying my apparent rudeness to Jamie Simmons - go fly a kite. I've had enough of this forum, and by implication, all of us, being used to legitimise the illegitimate.

This thread will produce nothing of worth.

Yours
Johan Buchner

Lazarus · **Posted:** Fri Aug 13, 2010 2:05 pm

barttore wrote:

How sorry I am to have started this topic….

I agree totally that there is much too much focus on the bad guys recreating valuable cars and that this man is unfoundedly “slaughtered” from the beginning in this topic for doing something he is not at all planning to do…
Bad guys are a fact in our society but please remember they are a minority.

This man is totally honest in stating from the earliest beginning that he needs to replace the chassis, obviously he has his reasons for this – which we do not know. So I can only suppose he will be honest about too that when he has finished restoring the car.

Even if he decides not to keep whatever remains of the chassis and throws the remains in a skip for recycling into beercans: It is his decision – because he is the owner. As long as he stays honest as to what is original or replaced or recreated it is fine with me.

I only hope that he will recreate an original as possible car. For example with a body that was on originally (or even one that was on the car later in history if he prefers), but I would prefer him not putting on a body that has never been installed before- even if it is correct for a T44 Bugatti. But even then – it is his choice if he prefers and stays honest about it.

I sincerely hope we can now focus on what we can do to help him find the history of (the remains of) his car and even maybe even help him find a suitable replacement chassis (original or reproduction) or whatever else he needs.

And if the “battle” about originality must continue, please start another topic on the definition of originality – so I can skip reading that topic.
To me only honesty and preserving as much as possible - in the spirit of the original – counts.

I have a handy skip outside my house for any old bugatti chassis frames....any additions welcome

J.J.Horst · **Posted:** Fri Aug 13, 2010 3:22 pm

Johan Buchner wrote:

Oh please. If the chassis is not salvageable then the Bugatti is not salvageable ; attaching an original chassis plate to a replica chassis is well, what exactly? It is not 44660, that's for sure. Chassis gone ; car gone.

As to those yet again decrying my apparent rudeness to Jamie Simmons - go fly a kite. I've had enough of this forum, and by implication, all of us, being used to legitimise the illegitimate.

This thread will produce nothing of worth.

As is the case in all of the threads in which you start your pointless attacks on people you do not even know, people who did not post on this forum nor sollicited in any way your rude remarks.

Johan Buchner wrote:

, and by implication, all of us,

"Us" is? You and all your fellow south africans, King Buchner?

Johan Buchner wrote:

My sincerest congratulations to Mr. Jamie Simmons on fulfilling his dream of owning a Bugatti.

Nothing further to add

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