Hello Fellow Bugatti Maniacs,

Does anyone have some more pictures/information about this strange looking Type 57?





The coachwork is made of fiberglass and designed by the American sculptor James Brown. There where two cars build. #57645 (At the moment rebuild and equipped with Aerolithe body), and #57723. The last car is most probably located in the car museum in Brussels (Autoworld) and is the car shown in the picture. The picture where found on Internet.

As a pure coincidence, Dieter Terbeck from Switserland is making a model from this car. I will post a picture later.

He probably has more info on this car. Looks ugly...

Pictures that I promised:
Please note that these pictures are scale models, made by Dieter Terbeck.
Please see the "models" section of the website and the scale models section of the forum for more info.

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Vive la Marque !!

To the best of my knowledge, and from looking up the cars in the records I have available, both of these cars had originally "Letourneur & Marchand" bodywork!
#57645 is supposed to have been broken up at some stage, but I have also heard that the car is being recreated with "Aerolithe" bodywork by The Guild of Automotive Restorers in Canada!
The records says nothing about the whereabouts today of #57723 some believe that this chassis is in France!
I am almost sure that it was at the museum in Mulhouse in 1996 I first saw this car!
It is not the most pretty of Bugattis.....


Best regards
Carsten

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"The drawing is the only great master that rules automobile construction!" "Ettore Bugatti"

Vive La Marque

Carsten

The following information comes from the Dutch Bugatti register…
(Names of owners where deleted due to privacy reasons)

Type 57 #57645

Delivered new with a Letourner et Marchand 2 door 4 seat cabriolet, design 2951, for FF 31.500. James Brown, an American sculptor living in Paris, made two cars- 57645 an 57723- with fiberglass coachwork and exhibited them at the Salon de l’automobile in 1955. Later when the car came in other hands, a replica Gangloff cabriolet body was made, but that restoration process never finished. Car has been for sale in Holland, and sold in 2004 to a German owner who felt the urge to recreate the Aerolithe body on this car. For this purpose the chassis was shortened.

Correction to my last post:
Of course It was a mistake by me to say that #57645 was the chassis to be rebuilt in Canada with an Aerolithe body! Of course this chassis has nothing to do with #57645, since the car being rebuilt in Canada is a very early Type 57 chassis!

But it is strange anyway since..........
I have informations that the Atlantic originally #57473 engine #10S which were hit by a Renault diesel train in France in 1955 when owned by Chatard, and later rebuilt by Berson, now use the #57645 and the registration "carte gris" from #57645 since this registration was available at the time after the accident and the following lawsuits! The original chassisnumber could not be used for the rebuilt car even though it was rebuilt on it's original chassis because the original Chassisnumber was taken in custody by the French authorities during the lawsuits and no longer legal ! This Atlantic now owned by Nicolas Seydoux also has the engine #473 which was originally the unblown engine from #57645, since the original Atlantic engine #10S was totally ground to pieces from the accident!
H.G. Conway also stated that #57645 was destroyed or broken up prior to the Atlantic rebuild and that the engine, Chassis number and registration papers for this car therefore was available for use in the rebuilt Atlantic!

Do you know what engine is now supposed to be in in the "Dutch" #57645, and where is the car now???

Best regards

Carsten

_________________
"The drawing is the only great master that rules automobile construction!" "Ettore Bugatti"

Vive La Marque

Carsten

*** Shortening of the chassis ***
The issue about the shortening of the Chassis has (To my opinion) nothing to do with the age of the base car. The Original car was of type 57 (Wheelbase 3300 mm) and the Coupe Aerolithe could be based on the shorter T57S Chassis (Wheelbase 2900 mm). To complicate things I read that there where two different Coupe Aerolithe cars build… Both did not exist simultaneously… and are difficult to identify from pictures…. There was something with different chassis types, and I am not sure if this also effected the wheelbase… Anyway… It seems that the German owner decided to go for a shorter chassis. The only way to solve this question is probably to contact the new owner…

The shortening of 3300 mm T57 Chassis is something that is done more often. Is there anyone that knows more about how this is done? Pictures? For me it looks like a lot of work.. Isn’t it easier to just make another chassis…. Can have something to do with the use of original parts (Chassis is main component)…

*** Engine in #57645 ***
In The Dutch Bugatti register it was also mentioned about the possibility that engine of the crashed Atlantic is mounted in the car. This can not be confirmed because the engine numbers were meticulously ground away…..

If you have the engine available, even if ground away completely, it can still be read, but I need to ask my father-in-law how exactly (he is a CSI-er). The grain structure of the aluminium below the numbers has changed, and it can be made visible again.

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Vive la Marque !!

Let this be the first mystery that the Bugattibuilder forum is solving….

Sounds like a good mystery for us to solve , let's do our best!
I will see what else I can find out about this!

I don't think that the engine#10S from the Atlantic could be in the Dutch car, since Berson kept the remains of this totally cracked and ruined engine when he sold his rebuilt Atlantic to Seydoux in 1974! He could have sold it later, but it would have taken a huge amount of work and would be a very difficult, almost impossible task to weld and rebuild a cracked and ruined engine that had been pushed 720 metres along a French railway track by a Renault diesel train!?!?
Could it be possible that the Dutch car was perhaps not the real #57645, or that the car was not destroyed and Hugh Conway was wrong???
But if the Dutch car is in fact the real #57645 then how come that the engine #473 from #57645 is now in the Seydoux Atlantic, and how come that the original #57645 lost it's chassisnumber, so that it's chassisnumber is now used for the Seydoux Atlantic???
There is enough to keep us busy researching for a while I think!
Very interesting indeed!!!

Vive La Marque!

Carsten

_________________
"The drawing is the only great master that rules automobile construction!" "Ettore Bugatti"

Vive La Marque

Carsten

Very interesting topic for sure!!

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Make your dream devour your life, so that life doesn't devour your dream.
[Antoine de Saint-Exupéry]

A Little further research shows that Paul-André Berson bought the engine #473 from a Mr. Dumontant, a well-known mechanic from the central part of France! This would have to have taken place between 1965 when Berson found the remains of his Atlantic in Gien, at a junk dealer who is no longer in existence, and 1973-74 when he had finished rebuilding the car, and sold it to Nicolas Seydoux!!!

.......more research

Best regards

Carsten

_________________
"The drawing is the only great master that rules automobile construction!" "Ettore Bugatti"

Vive La Marque

Carsten

When lookin on Internet I found the following at "The Guild of Automotive restorers Inc"

************

The Type 57 which we are going to be offering is chassis #57104 which originally had engine #45 and which was delivered to a coachbuilder in Paris. The T57 we have is a bare chassis and was so when we received it. As far as we know, it was delivered toLamberjack, France in 1932 or 33. Nobody seems to have any record of what body was on the car at that time. This is reputed to be the fourth 57 chassis built and it has been examined by Sandy Leith, a historian for the American club.

When the chassis was originally purchased by our client it carried engine #45 which we determined upon dismantling was in reality #46 which had been skillfully overstruck to matching number.
This engine and chassis are being restored to pristine and running condition and then we have been commissioned by our U.S. client to rebody the chassis as the Aerolithe. To this end we have done
extensive research and have hired some of the finest talent to re-create the lost Atlantique. This is actually a great opportunity because this early non supercharged engine and chassis are just right for the project.

Our client is quite determined to push this project to it's completion and the car will be offered for sale when finished. Details will be supplied to interested parties as the project goes along as to the accuracy and
methods employed in the coachbuilding.

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Info found on

http://www.bugattipage.com/voitures/bug ... /guild.htm

Jaap Horst has pointed my attention at this Web-site and the Forum. I read some very interesting comments such as:



This is important information as we have many cases where we would love to know original numbers (punched in steel as well as in aluminium) and that have been changed or ground away as in this case. There is no doubt however that the claim of the seller that this was the engine of the Holzschuh Atlantic is incorrect. However for litigational reasons it could not be written as such in the Register.

There was almost nothing left of the engine of the Holzschuh Atlantic, that came under the train; interestingly the foot of his girl friend had been found in the drivers side only after the lawsuit had concluded that he had been the driver- see the book of Les Matthew)

In fact it is the other way around (typical example of 'klok and klepel phenomenen): engine 473, which was originally in 57645 has been put in the Seydoux recreation replica Atlantic (that also has parts of the original 57473 Atlantic which were saved from the junkyard), but which now drives under the chassis number with the carte grise of 57171 (plate 791 BWV 75 - F).

The number of the engine now in the German car is unknown, but it would be great to discover it. There must have been a good reason to grinde the numbers away. I think I can persuade the owner to have his engine available for scrutiny. The car is scheduled to be shown completed in Essen this year, where it also was last year but then just as a wooden frame.

The blue fibreglass body that started this discussion is now on a volkswagen chassis, and cannot be driven. Both cars were exhibited at the Salon de Paris in 1955, in an effort to revitalize the brand, but to no avail. The whereabouts of the other James Brown car is unknown to me.

Herman, Can you help us with the metallurgical tests?

I will ask my father in law. I will also check with a wholesaler of CSI-equipment for a set of equipment. I have seen it before.

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Vive la Marque !!

Would we need this for aluminium, or for steel?

It involves dabbing a lot with strong acids. The surroundings should be protected. Ideas on how to work that out? I might have acid resistant clay, that can be made to create dams.

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Vive la Marque !!