One of the latest "discoveries" is the "Bugatti EMPEREUR"

Jaap Horst made a nice page about it, it can be found HERE.

Tell me what you think. Truth or scam?

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Vive la Marque !!

I will let you know what I think:

In the 50's and early 60's, people created large cars, with fighter airplane engines in them. Here in the Netherlands I know of at least 2 cars, one with a Merlin engine and another with some other airplane engine. (I will see if I can find pictures.

This creation can just as well be similar. Perhaps the builder wanted something to supersede the Royale, and stuck Bugatti Lozenges to the engine.

Very likely, these projects get tucked away for a certain period, and get rediscovered later. (or get cut up and trashed). This one survived.

Questions:
-what are the chassis numbers on the parts. They obviously do not have anything to do with the Jean Bugatti roadster carrying that chassis number.
-Why is this car shipped to South America, instead of the Royale Coupe Napoleon (which meant a lot to Ettore) or any other car. (or even the Bugatti family)
-Although Bugatti experimented with V-shaped engines, this was no earlier than the 1940's (1942, with the type 67 aero engine), and only on paper.
-If this engine has been built in Molsheim, why are there no Bugatti bolts used?
-In the late 1930's, Bugattis financial position was not such that these projects could be executed.

That is my opinion....

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Vive la Marque !!

The legend says :
Ettoire Bugatti made 4, 8 and 16 cylinder motorsd but NEVER 12.
Finance are +- =000 in 1937 ? Money ?
He has not money to develope Grand prix Cars WHY a new whit a 12 cylindres motor !!!

Dear Mr. Horst:
I' d like on behalf of the propietary of bugatti Empereur, you can publish in your web-site this information, without any modification.
Going through your comentary, I realize that in every moment you attemp to compare badly to the Bugatti Empereur. As for my concern, I never meant to compare badly to the Bugatti Royale.
The sizes of my car are:
TRAIL : 1, 80 mts.
DISTANCE BETWEEN AXLES : 4, 50 mts.
TOTAL LENGTH: 6, 50 mts.
FROM THE BASE OF THE TYRE, UP TO SUMMIT OF THE MUSK : 1,20 mts.
SIZE OF TYRES : 28" X 6 X 9.5 RIMS OF ALLOY, WITH 24 BLADES THAT COOL OFF THE ALUMINUM BRAKES BELLS SERVICE.
THE BRAKES ARE : LOCKETT BUGATTI, WITH DOUBLE SISTEMS (DOUBLE CIRCUITS).
ENGINE: IT'S A BUGATTI ALL SIDES SEALED 12 CYLINDER IN "V" 38 LITRES MODEL 1937 AND THE NUMBER OF THE BODYWORK IS 57-385-A.
I' don't understand how someone who is specialist in Bugatti has omitted the letter "A" wich Ettore Bugatti qualified the Bugattis Superlatives, the abreviation of my car are SSCP (that etymologicaly means: Super Sport Charged Prototype). I' can't understand how someone can confuse the engine of HISPANO-SUIZA Z-12 with the engine of my car, that was also built for Ettore Bugatti on Bordeux plant, which I have testimonies to show and prove it. And not only built the 12 cylinders, also the 6 cylinders for marine machines and fast motorboat.
I' don't have an idea, in what bases, nor either in which testimonies you have based upon to deny the construction of the itselues. When Mr. horst talks about the little connection, trying to minimize the relation of Bugatti with HISPANO-SUIZA it would be nice to tell you that the first spanish brand in the year 1938 definitively ended to make in bois - colombes French Factories, and in the spring time of 1939 when was ended the Spanish civil war, the HISPANO GUADALAJARA was destroyed and the Barcelona that was in better shape, was found in the situation that couldn't build nothing at all, without capital and rawmaterial, not even no one interested in the reconstruction of the factory.
We are going to ilustrate you about the matter: in 1946 was created the National Enterprise of Autotrucks S.A. (ENASA)of which was created The Pegaso Truck and The Pegaso Car (Z - 102). The only factory in France that built the engines 12 in "V" and 6 on line was the Ettore Bugatti factory in bordeux, up to the bombing for the RAF (ENGLISH REAL FORCE) in november 1940. Being me, an investigator and a serious specialist in mechanics restoration, I stand to qualify that is excessive trivial to judge of originality or not a car by photos, whithout parameter of qualification in the history either civil or mechanics.
The project of the 12 cylinders in "V" borns in 1936 and extends up to 1940 like DELAYE, ALFA ROMEO, ROLLS ROYCE, PEUGEOT, FIAT, HISPANO SUIZA, MAYBACH ZEPELIN. in Europe. In America were distinguished PACKARD, CADILLAC, LINCOLN, AUBURN, FRANKLIN, PIERCE ARROW and others manufacturers; they built from 1926 up to 1940, end of "V" 12 and "V" 16.
I'can' t understand how you dare to minimize the creative spirit of Ettore Bugatti that from its beginning with Stuki, then with The Count Dietrich, with Deutz, with Crossley, with Peugeot and Diato built engines from 1 cylinder,4 cylinders, 6 cylinders, 8 cylinders, 12 cylinders and 16 cylinders.
Regrettably to bring alive the Real Marca in the photos of my car, it gets worse than better.
With no other reason, and with the purpose of fulfill the doubts that can appear from the lover's of Bugatti history. I say goodbye to you for now politely.
Very Truly

Dear papalito,

When looking at the photo’s of the car I have to agree with the conclusions of Jaap and Herman. Bugatti or not… Your car looks like a nicely peace of engineering. As an engineer working for an engine company I share the opinion that the engine in the car is most likely of Aeronautical origin. Not one part of the engine makes me think it is designed by Bugatti.

In your post on this forum you are saying that you have testimonies to show and prove that the car is a real Bugatti. Please show us this information so we can share your opinion. All new work designed / build by Bugatti will for sure be warmly welcomed on the forum.

Best regards,

rivaaquarama

Dear Rivaaquarama:

Firstly we did not doubt that the engine has aviation technology. Second, we would be very happy if this project were our project, and, that took our name as well. can you image?, we would be geniuses, but we are not cars builders. The car is real and exist, we are not speaking only about an engine, we are speaking about a complete car, it must exist a relation between engine, gearbox and rear transmission. etc. The bodywork, completely aluminum polished, is impossible of being copied, the cost would be most expensive. We will try to obtain, that the specialists come to see it, they have different methods to analyze if it is real or not. The car has the steering wheel to the left, if it were our project, we would have built it with steering wheel to the right to avoid doubts, don't you think?. There are many things to discuss and this is what we want, you are invited to make questions, we will be proud to respond them. We have all Bugatti bolts and nuts, and with its respective EB, they were not used for the photos. Kindly papalito

Dear Mr. Papalito,

Let’s list the pro’s and the contra’s in this machine being a Bugatti.

Contra:

In 1937, the Bugatti firm didn’t have the finances to start another project of Royale proportions like this. And they couldn’t afford a commercial failure.

The quality of the craftmanship is unlike Bugatti, see
http://www.bugattipage.com/newspics/emp13.jpg or
http://www.bugattipage.com/newspics/emp14.jpg.

In 1937, Jean was in most aspects leading the manufacturing of cars. After presenting the T57 in a few different versions, which was a more logical and business wise approach to building cars then building several completely different types at the same time like Ettore did.

No Bugatti nuts and bolts are visible.

There are too many numbers stamped everywhere on the car.

Why would chassis number 57385 be used when it clearly isn’t a T57?

Bugatti during the war only produced parts for Hispano-Suiza engines in his Bordeaux factory. They made crankshafts, camshafts and propellor shafts for the 12X, 12Y and 12Z engines according to Noel Domboy. Never complete engines (and if so, they would still be Hispano Suiza engines, no Bugatti engines).

Bugatti, as far as I know, never produced 12 or 6 cilinder engines.

Pro:

Ettore wrote in a letter to the secretary of the Bugatti Owners Club in early 1945 about his plans after the war. In this letter he says “I have provided for a Grand Sport de Luxe, with an engine of 4-litre capacity, and a Royale, but much lighter.”. So he had plans for or at least was thinking of building a large car like the Royale again.

Leaving all rationality behind, one never knows what Ettore might have done.

Then there are a lot of questions. What does AK7 mean? Do you have information about the history of the car? Previous owners? How did you obtain it?

What do you mean by “I' don't understand how someone who is specialist in Bugatti has omitted the letter "A" wich Ettore Bugatti qualified the Bugattis Superlatives”? What letter A?
What do you mean by Ettore Bugatti qualified Bugattis Superlatives with a letter A?

Then you state “the abreviation of my car are SSCP (that etymologicaly means: Super Sport Charged Prototype).” How do you know this is the meaning of SSCP?

Jaap asks in his article “What does "Brevetées S.G.D.G. mean?”. I think it means Sans Garantie Du Gouvernement (Without garantuee of the government).

You say that you have testimonies and proof. Please show them to us.

Best regards,

Jeroen

Thanks for the comments. SGDG surely means "Sans garantie du gouvernement".

AK7 was a Minerva type. According to a friend / specialist, the rear axle seems to be from a Minerva.

Also, the supercharger is post war, and was used on 2-stroke English diesel trucks.

Furthermore, when making such a car with such a huge engine, you would try to make a record car from it, not just a giant tourer! A tourer uses enough petrol already with a 5-litre engine! And, for the record car, a design was available with 3 T50B engines, Bugattis best engines at the moment in both power an weigth!

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www.BugattiPage.com
www.BugattiRevue.com
www.BugattiAircraft.com

dear Bugatti friends:
In the website (www.supercars.net/cars/2705.html) I found this article, that it has some coincidences with our car, about heavily raked windscreen,V-shaped radiator was used. Rudge Witworth wire wheels, complex De Rams shocks absorbers, fifteen inch drum brakes and a strong, uncluttered chassis. Ettore's son, Jean Bugatti, who played a large role in the development of the Type 57 series, personally styled the Atlantic. Jean's lines draw an interesting mix of aircraft styling together with the avant-garde tear-drop that is so reminiscent of the thirties. Design highlights include a heavily raked windscreen, riveted fins, and oval doors with kidney-shaped side windows.

Momentum behind the style was structured by a design concept of incorporating Electron, an alloy of magnesium and aluminum from IG Farben of Germany, in the design. Though it is strong, and up to one third the weight of aluminum, it is also highly flammable thus welding was not possible. This meant that each panel had to be riveted into place which posed a particular problem for traditional design. Therefore, Jean incorporated the rivet's aesthetic into the wings of the car and created a telling combination of function and form.

As the first car to bear fins, the silver Electron Aerolithe Prototype debuted as a possible sport model of the Type 57 series at the 1935 Paris Motor Show. As much of a sensation as the car must have been, it only drew three orders. By the time production commenced in 1936, standard aluminum was chosen over the flammable electron and the specially lowered Type 57S chassis, with its smaller, V-shaped radiator was used.

Kindly Pablo Palumbo (papalito)

Dears Bugatti Friends:
I want to comment about the abbreviation Brevete S.G.D.G. According to Agreement of Paris 1883, it was the patent which it France gave to certain monopolies by a lapse of 20 years, for the operation of some object or technical method. Kindly Papalito

bonjour
Je ne parle pas anglais mais neanmoins je viens donner mon avis sur la "Bugatti" Empereur !
Cette voiture est apparament doté d'un moteur V12 d'avion de 35 litres de cylindrée , donc ce moteur doit developpé au minimum dans les 600 chevaux !
Comment cette voiture peut elle roulée avec un tel moteur ? L'embrayage va tellement patiné au démarrage qu'il sera rapidement brulé, les pignons de boite de vitesse et du pont arriere vont en perdre leurs dents !
Les pneus vont déchapper à la moindre accelaration !

Les essais de voiture avec moteur d'avion tels les Dragsters sont toujours équipé d'un convertisseur de couple et d'une boite automatique !

Le grand Etorre lui meme avait mis un convertisseur de couple sur ses autorails !

A mon avis cette voiture est un gadget fait d'un assemblage disparate de differents élements !
Les estampilles Bugatti que l'on voit sur certains pieces sont malhabillement faites !
Quand au numero 57 385 que l'on trouve sur certaines pieces, tous les vrais Bugatiste savent tres bien que cette voiture a mysterieusement disparu en aout 1958 ! Elle aurait revu fin 1958 debut 1959 Rue du Cherche Midi à Paris par Paul Badré ! La boite de vitesse numéro 20 S se trouve dans les reserve du Musée de Mulhouse et une partie du moteur se trouve dans la salle d'exposition !

Alors peut on déduire que quelqu'un est ou a été en possession de cette voiture "volée". Pourquoi n'a jamais t'on entendu parlé de ce modele empereur qui réaparait aujourd'hui !

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french

Merci Jean Marie pour votre reponse.

J'ai traduit la reponse avec babelfish en Anglais, et j'ai corrige quelques erreurs de Babelfish

hello I do not speak English but nevertheless I come to give to my opinion on the "Bugatti" Emperor!
This car is apparament equipped with a V12 engine of 35 liters cubic capacity, therefore this engine must develop at least in the 600 horses! How can this car run with such an engine? The clutch wears quickly when starting which it will quickly burn, the pinions of the gearbox and from the differential will lose their teeth! The tires will blow with the least accelaration!
The tests of car with such engines such as dragsters are always equipped with a torque converter and of automatich gearboxes! Large same Etorre had put a torque converter to him on its rail-cars!
With my opinion this car is a gadget made of a disparate assembly different élements! The Bugatti stamps which one sees on certain parts are malhabillement made! When with the number 57 385 that one finds on certain parts, all Bugatiste truths know very well that this car mysterieusement disappeared in August 1958! It would have re-appeared at the end of 1958 at the beginning of 1959 Rue du Cherche Midi in Paris by Paul Badré! Gearbox 20 S is in the reserve of the Museum of Mulhouse and a part of the engine is in the showroom!
Then can one conclude that somebody is or was in possession of this "stolen" car. Why never one heard to you spoken about this model emperor which reappeared today!

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Vive la Marque !!

I wonder if I might approach this subject from a different angle? Ettore was not a modest man. Is it conceivable that he could have created this wonderful prototype in total secrecy? And even if it is possible, am I really supposed to believe that neither Mr Conway nor Mr Borgeson ever discovered any trace of it's excistance?

On the photo's of it on Mr Horst's Bugatti page the shape of the radiator seems unlike any other Bugatti radiator I've ever seen. But I am merely an amateur, so my opinion should not be trusted.

By the way, is there a term for people like me? People who are no longer content to merely look at the pictures and who have gone on to collect chassis numbers, but lacks the knowledge and arrogance to describe themselves as historians.

I shall conclude by saying that, in my humble opinion, the Emperor is probably not strictly original.

A forum for Bugatti lovers - Genius, Pure Genius!!

Kind Regards
Johan Buchner