I have a few questions regarding the dark blue T57S roadster in the gallery section of Bugattibuilder.com. This car is credited with the ch.no. 57492. Seeing that both Simon and Laugier claim this car to have been written off, and both states that no parts belonging to 57492 has been found, leads to some interesting possibilities:

1) The information in the gallery could be wrong. (Sorry Herman!)

2) Laugier and Simon are both wrong.

3) The car is a fake.

The third and last possibility seems quite unlikely; the car features on the American Bugatti Club's website. Surely they would not allow fakes on their rallies? I remain curious about this car for no other reason than I find it quite beautiful. So how original is it?

Another question: Has the 3 out of 5 rule plus the recent change by FIFA to allow replicas helped reduce the amount of Grand Prix Bugattis laying claim to spurious histories? I love newly built cars, especially the craftsmanship that goes into them. The recreated Auto-Union Streamliner is beyond ravishing, and its creators does not claim it to be anything but an exact replica. Trying to pass it off as original, however, will bring out the torch-bearing villager in me. I also like the Bugattis built in Argentina, as long as they are described as newly built. Has anyone tried to pass one of them off as genuine, yet? If the answer is "yes" then I say thus: "Citizens of France! Bring back Madame Guillotine!" Mind you, getting that ratified in Brussels could be problematic.

Perhaps there are some posters who have strong opinions about originality, or the lack thereof. Please share your passion with the rest of us. I live in South Africa, so keeping up with the zeitgeist (a German word, I believe) depends to a large extent on the willingness of contributors to freely share their opinions and their knowledge. Speaking of knowledge; I have received no further information on 50131. (Mr Dovaz's other T50) I feel a little neglected, truth be told......

I wish a splendid day to all.

Kind Regards
Johan Buchner

It could be possible that a replica, or a new chassis with old engine, or an old chassis without number, has been given the chassisnumber.

In fact, a chassis number is nothing more than the papers of the car, and a plaque on the firewall. Anything can happen with that...

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I did not realise how easy it is to make mischief with chassis numbers. Kinda scary really; why can't people just tell the truth?

Johan

Yes, it is kind of freaky. However, people buying Bugattis usually know what they are doing, or have special firms track the history of the car.

Also, the Bugatti Trust and websites like this one make it more easy to trace back the history of a certain car.

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I generally agree with Johan, replicas are okay as long as they are clearly stated as such.

@ Johan

Did you read this topic?
http://forum.bugattibuilder.com/viewtopic.php?t=332
Here you can see how easy it is to convert a replica to a genuine car!
Well, genuine to an unexperienced buyer at least.

Let's issue a "price list" for a T35...
Full replica - $ 120.000
Full replica with serial no. existing on another car - $ 160.000
Full replica with "lost" serial no. - $ 200.000
Replica, sorry, restauration with 30 % original parts - $ 300.000

I wish to thank both you gentlemen for sharing some very interesting facts. I did not realise what a huge effect some implied history can have on a replica's resale value! The more I read about how man's greed may harm the history of Bugatti, the more I appreciate the efforts of people like Mr Kelsey. I really enjoy the purity of his efforts; he wishes to build a homage to Bugatti and not a replica. How refreshing, and my perverse sense of humour wishes Mr Kelsey would put a "powered by Toyota" sticker on his car!

Thanks to your first reply Herman, I had a bit of an epiphany. I really gave an exaggerated importance to the chassis number without really thinking about what it means. Before the Bugatti factory would release a car to its new owner, they would issue it with an ID number, which we commonly refer to as a chassis number. But as you pointed out, it is actually a plaque attached to the firewall, with the ID/Ch.no. stamped on it. This number means that that entity is made up of a chassis frame, engine, gearbox, front and rear suspension and the bulkhead and, I'm sure, a whole raft of additional components; most stamped with their own serial number.

So whether 57492 has a plaque with the number 57492 on it or not, what identifies the car is the collection of its major components, right? Has the frame a number stamped on it? And the engine? And was these numbers stamped in by the factory, or by a restorer circa 1995? By the way, how much original paperwork got lost during the War? Do we know the identity of every car built by Bugatti, and, even more importantly, the numbers of each one of their respective components? Let the knowledge flow! Please!

Onto another subject; reading through the different posts I was struck by how many of us are searching for information about specific cars, and how few are answered. I'm dying to know more about the T40 that Martijn (and that bloody spammer) asked about, but so far not much.(some very nice photos, but nothing of its fate) Either no-one knows, or those who do know, are keeping quiet. Which of these two possibilities is the more frightening?

To Herman, Michael and all the other contributors I wish to convey my sincerest gratitude for your willingness to share the knowledge you have. It is not what I've learned about Bugatti cars that is so awesome, but learning about Bugatti people. I am enjoying my journey. Thank you.

Johan

Well, There have been in the last few years a few persons who really should know better, who bought a PurSang-built Bugatti from Argentina, thinking they bought an original one. So, it is not always true that the history of a certain Bugatti is fully checked before a car is bought. often this is because the car on offer is cheaper than what is usual on the market, and the buyers are scared that an opportunity passes them.

The chassis number often is stamped on the right-rear part of the engine, where it is fixed to the chassis. The chassis has a separate frame number, which is not the same as the chassis number. Of course there is also an engine number (also on the engine), and numbers on the front and rear axle and the gearbox. This will have varied a bit over the years.

It is however not the case that all confusions with chassis numbers are deliberately to sell a car as another one. Many of these confusions were started in the 60's, when Bugattis were just cheap old cars (though faster than most!) To avoid paying too many taxes, chassis numbers were sometimes changed, This already started with Bugatti themselves, who used the same chassis numbers sometimes for two different cars (most famous would be the 1st Royale), and often used the same registration or license plates for different cars.

I'm sure that this does not help much to avoid confusion....

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The example of #4938 clearly shows how the game works. As pointed out PurSang didn't built whole cars before 1997, so how the hell can there be a title from 1976?? I don't think it is really necessary to write down here more details, your're all intelligent enough!

What went wrong? #4938 - the real one - is still existing! Bloody stupid...!
Why not using e.g. #4902? For sure the experts here will leave some comments on this...
But even blank and scrapped numbers are getting short nowadays, and I'm sure that there are more than one double identities. And some even 3- or 4-fold...! Even numbers of the T35A are used in the meantime, with histories then read like "converted to T35B at an unknown date".

The PurSang replicas cannot be seen black-white only, there's a rather wide scale of grey. Buy one new from the factory and try to register it as new car. In most countries you will fail! Simply because it does not comply with the actual legislation. You got the point?

If you can prove to the registration authorities that it is an old car from the 20's, perfectly restored, nobody will ask for catalytic converter, ABS, seat belts, and crashtests...! Or in other words - the documents delivered with the car from Argentina very often are necessary to put the car on the road at all.

Okay, so far so good. As long as the owner stays honest there's no damage. But he now has a title in hands which may be worth 100.000 or more. And even if he can resist, what may happen if the car changes hands?

The eBay auction of #4938 was already in the grey zone. Although the car is described as replica, some parts of the description may led to another conclusion. And the "Buy-it-now" price of $ 350.000 clearly suggests an original - or at least partly original - car. What next? Can we be sure that the new owner will use a similar description if he sells the car in future?

Let's be honest, how much really original T35 Grand Prix cars are really around nowadays? I still remember the 80's and 90's where unrestored cars had been dismantled and 2 or even 3 "restored" cars had been created from such remains. How much cars are simply a "restored" M8x35 bolt with some blue paint residues digged out at a place where rumours locate a Bugatti garage 70 years ago?

To add oil onto this great conversation, I once heard rumours of Volkswagen, buying a Pur Sang replica, thinking it was an original...

However, I have no proof, so I did not mention it before. Great story though...

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I heard the story that Volkswagen bought an Atlantic thinking it was an original one.

I agree that there is nothing wrong with a replica like a Pur Sang 35B, as long as you're honest that it is a replica. If you need to create a history to get the car on the road, so be it. But don't use the fake history to increase the value of the car.

Has anyone experience with these Pur Sangs? Do they really feel and drive like an orginal Molsheim Bugatti?

I once informed about the Pur Sangs. In New Zealand there is a Dutchman (his name is Rick) selling the Pur Sangs. I know of a Pur Sang T43 in Holland, saw it last year at the concours d'elegance at Paleis het Loo.

Greetings, Jeroen

Don't believe the Volkswagen story. At least this could not happen under the reign of former CEO Thomas Bscher who among other cars personally owns a (genuine) T59.
Possibly they bought a PurSang replica to display it in the Molsheim premises or the Wolfsburg museum purely for show reasons. Why not?

As a competitor??
And as far I know (also) this car has a registration number of the series reserved for classic cars....

VW-Bugatti bought the Koux-replica Atlantic apparently before Thomas Bscher became president of Bugatti. Thomas Bscher bought the T59 after becoming president of Bugatti, not before, so I doubt that he was very familiar with the old Bugattis. He was more into sportscar racing, more modern cars.

I wonder if he now sold his T59?

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According to Kees Jansen, who is founder/president of the Bugatti Identification Group, there are approx. 50 double chassis numbers, several triples and one 4-fold!

Some of the double numbers can be accounted for; due to cars that changed engines in the past, sometimes the car received the number of the engine as the chassis number, while the other car retained the same number.

Others are just pure fraud.

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Which does not mean that they really considered the car as genuine. Although it is of course not excluded that in PR statements the replica status had been "forgotten" to mention.