Bugattibuilder.com forum :: View topic - Investigation of chassis numbers and their history

Williamswinner wrote:

Why has nobody said the unthinkable - that this COULD be a BRAND NEW 35A RECREATION.

Possible, but all replicas I know are T35B, cause that's the standard type of Pur Sang. But even so, it would be much easier to take a serial of a disappeared T35A. There are still plenty available, and there would be no discrepancy.

More likely that #4842 is simply wrong, #4742 was an A, and also #4832 and #4852.

I agree on that. In the books the 4842 is a type 35B.

However, the photos show a type 35A or drastic alterations to the car.

About the monoplace: Putting in a dohc engine surely makes life easier, with the distributor being not in the middle.

Here is a picture of 37228 (with type 44 engine) and steering in the middle. Note the massive steering gear. (very non-bugatti style...)
Although not a car relevant for this thread, it shows the alterations nicely.

More at: http://www.bugattibuilder.com/photo/thumbnails.php?album=418

Thats not quite correct. Pur Sang startet by copying a Bugatti T 35 C, 2-liter, which was left in Argentina. He later added the Type B Engines, cause he could use them for the T 43 Recreations.

The pictures shows a 35C engine not a T44.

Herman wrote:

More at: http://www.bugattibuilder.com/photo/thumbnails.php?album=418

The pictures shows a 35C engine not a T44.

The steering is based on Molsheim components. Only the output shaft of the steerirng box is lenghtened and an additional support bearig has been rigged up. As close to Molsheim as you can get...
Bugwrench

I understand the car in Mulhouse is 37350 with engine 2 ex 51134.

It would be possible that the T35B of Burggaller was modified to become the monoplace #51134.

And the T37A #37350 was also modified to become a T51A for W Escher (CH).

In this case the 51134 is well the T35B of Burggaller modified in single-seat T51A
They would be well two different T51A. Both having been the property of Burggaller

The condition of most of the Bugattis is a disgrace and the lack of access given to the cars by genuine researchers represents petty beauracracy. I hope the Bugatti Liberation Front can persuade the "management" at Mulhouse to allow the Wimille type 59/50B to return to Prescott in 2009. I for one would contribute to a fund to actually make this happen. Does anyone know the name of the person to write to at Molsheim to discuss these matters ? Do we know his e.mail address ?

Author:	Odin [ Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:40 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 4842
Michael Müller wrote: Williamswinner wrote: Why has nobody said the unthinkable - that this COULD be a BRAND NEW 35A RECREATION. Possible, but all replicas I know are T35B, cause that's the standard type of Pur Sang. But even so, it would be much easier to take a serial of a disappeared T35A. There are still plenty available, and there would be no discrepancy. More likely that #4842 is simply wrong, #4742 was an A, and also #4832 and #4852. Thats not quite correct. Pur Sang startet by copying a Bugatti T 35 C, 2-liter, which was left in Argentina. He later added the Type B Engines, cause he could use them for the T 43 Recreations. The first Engines were all with Roller Bearings. Most Cars went via Spain, with 'found' Paperwork to Europe. Now they are selling official Recreations, but before they went as Originals. Regards Jörg

Author:	Bugwrench [ Fri Feb 29, 2008 7:59 pm ]
Post subject:
Herman wrote: I agree on that. In the books the 4842 is a type 35B. However, the photos show a type 35A or drastic alterations to the car. About the monoplace: Putting in a dohc engine surely makes life easier, with the distributor being not in the middle. Here is a picture of 37228 (with type 44 engine) and steering in the middle. Note the massive steering gear. (very non-bugatti style...) Although not a car relevant for this thread, it shows the alterations nicely. More at: http://www.bugattibuilder.com/photo/thumbnails.php?album=418 The pictures shows a 35C engine not a T44. The steering is based on Molsheim components. Only the output shaft of the steerirng box is lenghtened and an additional support bearig has been rigged up. As close to Molsheim as you can get... Bugwrench

Author:	Michael Müller [ Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 4842
Odin wrote: Thats not quite correct. Pur Sang startet by copying a Bugatti T 35 C, 2-liter, which was left in Argentina. He later added the Type B Engines, cause he could use them for the T 43 Recreations. There's no real difference between 35C and 35B despite the engine capacity. But the 35A IS different of course. Never heard about 35A replicas from Pur Sang, no 270 mm radiator, and no small brake drums.

Author:	Hunter [ Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:55 pm ]
Post subject:	37228 - engine mounting bolts.
What a shame modern bolts (with letters and numbers on the bolt heads) have been used instead of proper square-head Bugatti bolts.

Author:	Michael Müller [ Fri Feb 29, 2008 9:06 pm ]
Post subject:
Bugwrench wrote: The pictures shows a 35C engine not a T44. Unlikely if considering the coil ignition. Looks like T38A.

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Investigation of chassis numbers and their history http://www.bugattibuilder.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=463	Page 1 of 2

Author:	bugatti69 [ Fri Feb 29, 2008 11:39 pm ]
Post subject:
#51134 monoplace T51A at Ruhestein, F.G. Martin #51134 at Mulhouse:

Author:	Herman [ Sat Mar 01, 2008 11:08 am ]
Post subject:
Bugwrench wrote: Herman wrote: I agree on that. In the books the 4842 is a type 35B. However, the photos show a type 35A or drastic alterations to the car. About the monoplace: Putting in a dohc engine surely makes life easier, with the distributor being not in the middle. Here is a picture of 37228 (with type 44 engine) and steering in the middle. Note the massive steering gear. (very non-bugatti style...) Although not a car relevant for this thread, it shows the alterations nicely. More at: http://www.bugattibuilder.com/photo/thumbnails.php?album=418 The pictures shows a 35C engine not a T44. The steering is based on Molsheim components. Only the output shaft of the steerirng box is lenghtened and an additional support bearig has been rigged up. As close to Molsheim as you can get... Bugwrench I do not like the extra support. It just does not look "Molsheim". A couple of hours spent extra at the milling machine, and a couple of hours filing and sanding would make this support look so much better. Now it looks "crude but effective".

Author:	Michael Müller [ Sat Mar 01, 2008 11:35 am ]
Post subject:
Bugwrench wrote: I understand the car in Mulhouse is 37350 with engine 2 ex 51134. bugatti69 wrote: #51134 at Mulhouse: What is correct?? #51134 or #37350? And which engine? To be honest, both version would be a surprise for me. The car at Mulhouse indeed looks like Martin's car at the Ruhestein hillclimb 1946 (photos btw are from my archive). Why all Bugattis at Mulhouse are painted blue and not in the national color they had been raced will remain a mystery for me.... If the Mulhouse car is #51134, then Martin's car was NOT the ex-Burggaller car, but that of Willy Escher. And if it is #37350, then Burggaller did NOT convert his T35B to T51A, but his older T37A which I have listed as #37350. But despite the chassis used, Burggaller first raced the T51A engine on 5.5.1932 at Wiesbaden, and Escher's #51134 was delivered to him only in July 1932. So it is impossible that the engine from #51134 was used by Burggaller.

Author:	bugatti69 [ Sat Mar 01, 2008 12:34 pm ]
Post subject:
On the book of the Editions d'Art of J.P. Barthelemy the monoplace of Mulhouse is indicated as being a 51A type of 1932 with frame 37350. Engine modified to replace the engine 37A. Convey used by W Escher (CH). It is not specified that this single-seater has frame 51134. It would be possible that the T35B of Burggaller was modified to become the monoplace #51134. And the T37A #37350 was also modified to become a T51A for W Escher (CH) They would be 2 different T51A.

Author:	bugatti69 [ Sat Mar 01, 2008 1:15 pm ]
Post subject:
Can be that that was not the #51134 which was delivered to Willy Escher (CH), but the 37350 modified with an engine T51A and which is currently in Mulhouse In this case the 51134 is well the T35B of Burggaller modified in single-seat T51A They would be well two different T51A. Both having been the property of Burggaller

Author:	Michael Müller [ Sat Mar 01, 2008 1:59 pm ]
Post subject:
bugatti69 wrote: It would be possible that the T35B of Burggaller was modified to become the monoplace #51134. This was my previous opinion, but I had to revise it. Various reasons: - Only the factory can renumber cars. And Bugatti files show #51134 for Escher. - The timing. Burggaller raced the 8C-1500 s/c DOHC engine first in early May 1932, the Escher car was delivered only in July that year. bugatti69 wrote: And the T37A #37350 was also modified to become a T51A for W Escher (CH). No, the Escher car acc. to Conway (= factory files) was a T39C (=T39A) which was reengined and renumbered. No idea which one. I thought already about #4751, the T36 1100 monoplace, which was sold to Switzerland in 1926, and which reportedly later was upgraded to 8C-1500 (= T39A). Don't forget, Karrer and Escher had been very close or even partners. This would explain the monoplace configuration, but if so, also the front axle has been changed to usual standard. And also my files list #37350 for being the Burggaller car. bugatti69 wrote: In this case the 51134 is well the T35B of Burggaller modified in single-seat T51A They would be well two different T51A. Both having been the property of Burggaller Very unlikely, because why owning 2 equal T51A's? The question can only be answered if we know exactly the details of the Mulhouse car, meaning not from books or other statements, but by physical inspection. My experience shows that too much mistakes are carried forward even over decades because they are simply repeated.

Author:	Legaleagle [ Sat Mar 01, 2008 2:45 pm ]
Post subject:	The Schlumpf Collection.
The condition of most of the Bugattis is a disgrace and the lack of access given to the cars by genuine researchers represents petty beauracracy. I hope the Bugatti Liberation Front can persuade the "management" at Mulhouse to allow the Wimille type 59/50B to return to Prescott in 2009. I for one would contribute to a fund to actually make this happen. Does anyone know the name of the person to write to at Molsheim to discuss these matters ? Do we know his e.mail address ?

Author:	soling [ Sat Mar 01, 2008 5:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The Schlumpf Collection.
Legaleagle wrote: The condition of most of the Bugattis is a disgrace and the lack of access given to the cars by genuine researchers represents petty beauracracy. I hope the Bugatti Liberation Front can persuade the "management" at Mulhouse to allow the Wimille type 59/50B to return to Prescott in 2009. I for one would contribute to a fund to actually make this happen. Does anyone know the name of the person to write to at Molsheim to discuss these matters ? Do we know his e.mail address ? Do not forget that Mulhouse is a national museum and that the men in charge are not interested in the collection and don't give a damn about it. The condition of all the cars, Bugattis and others, is effectively a disgrace and the only maintenance wich is done is dusting them from time to time. Being french I deplore it but except the one of Air and Space this attitude is very common with our museums. Best regards Soling

Author:	Herman [ Sat Mar 01, 2008 8:56 pm ]
Post subject:
The museum just invested more than 20 million euros. They have made a large entrance, made a very nice engine room, and parted a T57S to show the construction. Furthermore they are prepared to bring the cars to car shows. Last year in Bremen they brought 6 or 7 cars, including a Royale, the T53 chassis, a Royale engine and some more stuff. I think it is a difficult task to maintain a car collection like that. What should the cars look like, in what condition should you keep them. Racing them is out of the question, perhaps tours are acceptable.

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Author:	Michael Müller [ Sat Mar 01, 2008 9:24 pm ]
Post subject:
It's off-topic here, so maybe somebody can cut the last postings and open a separete thread. I think the museum should invest more in real research. A full-time Bugatti historian would be really useful. They simply administrate what they have, and nobody seems really interested in the individual histories of the cars.