Dear Friends

The purpose of this post is as follows :

1) An accurate evaluation of Wiki as it stands including it's failings.

2) The effect this has on the way Wiki is perceived by the wider Bugatti community.

3) A discussion of possible procedural adaptations to prevent Wiki from becoming further irrelevant.

When I joined Bugattibuilder.com in September 2007 it was simply to find the English Translation for Laugier, which I received the very next morning, yet I stayed. I stayed simply because I enjoy myself, still do. Very much. Whatever I have put in I have received back ten-fold. And in the beginning Wiki was like a virtual Aladdin's cave for me, so much that was new, so much information, so much knowledge, and all completely free of charge. And with my admittedly limited knowledge Wiki served it's purpose very well, so well in fact that my knowledge expanded to the point where I began to notice little mistakes here and there.

Which is why I could never quite understand why certain highly respected Bugattisti were so utterly scathing about Wiki, it's free damn you I muttered to myself but now things are different - I understand. Let me quote from an e-mail I received from a British member of BIG (Bugatti Identification Group - just in case you were wondering) : "What I want is accuracy and honesty otherwise there is no point in a Register. The Wiki is useless because anybody can put anything they like in there." I wish I could quote his entire letter but like most of the senior members of BIG I have the good fortune to communicate with he prefers to remain anonymous. The implications are of course very serious : Wiki is not well regarded by the Great and the Good of the Bugatti world. The reason for this is quite simple, the information is unreliable and inaccurate concerning those types facing the biggest hurdles from fakers, fraudsters and historical revisionists. Make no mistake, thanks to authors like Laugier the Wiki inscriptions for the T57S is pretty accurate and to a large extent the same applies to the Tourers and Grand Tourers (Counterpoint : A replica T57S frame recently had the frame number from a genuine T57 chassis cut out and welded in! A T44 is for sale in Germany at 500 000 ; 12 T44 frames has recently been produced France.)

Nowhere is this combination of dishonest Wiki-adapters and genuine mistakes made by well intentioned enthusiasts more damaging than with the T35/37/39/51 family. Perhaps damaging is the wrong word, perhaps more accurate to point out that this has rendered Wiki utterly irrelevant. Does this matter I hear you ask? It does. It matters a great deal, Wiki is a reflection of us all you see? And as things stand Wiki is not up to the standards set by the very best among us. Furthermore, it undermines the very purpose of the impecunious enthusiast determined to play a positive role in the protection of this marque and it's legacy we love so much. We, and by we I mean I, who lack the money to influence developments in the Bugatti market does have a very important role to play ; we, and again by we I mean I, can and must accurately record absolutely bloody everything, especially those things not suppose to be public knowledge. Now how do we accomplish this in the litigious happy environment we live in? Simple, we steal ideas from trash journalists, for example ; a car with a shaky provenance, provided it is not being marketed as genuine and/or original can be described simply and accurately as follows : "Claims for this car cannot at present be substantiated." But what to do with those individuals who gains access to Wiki to give legitimacy (and gain vast profits in the process) to a blatant fake? If we call it a fake Herman runs the risk of being sued, and defending oneself in a civil procedure is prohibitively expensive. The solution is simple, we speak in code and I suggest that when a blatant replica comes to market claiming a fictitious provenance we say : "This car arose from a scrap yard in Kent." (It appeals to my admittedly rather warped sense of humour)

But before this can happen access to Wiki must be radically curtained; indeed so serious is the situation I am hereby formally requesting Herman to lock Wiki down, no-one, and I mean no-one, touches Wiki until such time we can identify and expose those individuals who are using the privilege of Wiki editing to spread lies. And once we have stopped the rot how do we fix it? How do we turn Wiki from an inaccurate list of all things Bugatti-like into the definitive World Register for Molsheim Bugattis it can and must become? I do not have a goddamn clue. Nothing, nada, niks nie. Again I hear you ask, does this matter? No, it does not, not really.

I know of at least 5 people with the knowledge and experience and sheer wisdom to turn Wiki into the thing of beauty I want it to become. The only problem is they are all very busy people, simply turning Wiki over to them and say fix it is not going to work. And this Dear Friend, is where you come in : How do we get the right people to make Wiki right? Perhaps by talking about it? In public? Using our real names? Over to you.

With Grateful Thanks
Johan Buchner.
Bugatti Enthusiast.

PS. In anticipation of the many e-mails I'm about to receive accusing me of mortally offending certain otherwise pure-as-the-driven-snow individuals allow me to reply now : "I'm terribly sorry, but I think you are CONFUSING ME WITH SOMEONE WHO GIVES A FLYING #$%&"

How about this:

At first, when the WIKI was still on the Bugattibuilder.com domain, I had plans to have software written, which would integrate WIKI, the photo database, and the forum. For any given chassis number a text file would be present, with confirmed info (moderated by a small group), unconfirmed data (where anyone would be able to contribute), the photo database, and a thread on the forum, for discussion purposes. I have posted earlier about that.

However the French attacks forced me to split WIKI from Bugattibuilder, effectively losing this opportunity. If I would not have done that, both sites would not have existed anymore.

So after that, I had to find a different solution, for which I started a discussion.

At this point, for me it is very simple:

I have taken several actions, to start a centralised and public discussion on the vulnerability and future of the current WIKI on bugattiregister.com

After some discussion scattered over several threads, I opened a centralised one, and asked for comments: http://www.bugattibuilder.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=1639. No reactions.

I had some email conversation with Kees, and he suggested I would mail all BIG members. I sent them a mail explaining the current situation and many more things, and invited them over to react publicly or on my email address. Also, I created a private area for BIG members on this forum, not visible for others, so discussions could be held in relative peace. Reactions? Zero.

Therefore I do feel a bit sad / surprised that discussions seem to be held on the subject "bugattiregister.com" without me being taken part in it. This constant secrecy irritates me. Therefore I suggest the people involved will speak up and start a constructive discussion.

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Vive la Marque !!

Hi Herman

I'm not surprised at your irritation with the secrecy, but I still went ahead and posted the above, very aware of the fact that I did not do you, the creator of this forum and all who sail in her after all, the courtesy of a heads-up. Quite deliberate on my part ; I wanted to high-light the failings of not only the crooks and the deleters but also of the many failings of those of us who profess to care very deeply about The World Register (just a thought). Good intentions does not correct faulty information. It just doesn't you know. Keep in mind that I have never corrected a damn thing on Wiki - ever.

Yet I still suggested that you lock Wiki down. I need, I really, really need for us all to move from a comment-from-the-side-line attitude to one of active involvement by those with the requisite skill to make The World Register of Molsheim Bugattis the glittering triumph we all so richly deserves. And to achieve this I'm prepared to cause even you Herman, even you, some offense.

Remind me to apologise to you should this attempt fail. After all, I bring but words. There's been so many words already ...............

Kind Regards
Johan

The WIKI will not be closed for editing. For those who have critisism, feel free to make corrections. It is easy, and I have never blamed anyone for screwing up the layout. WIKI is about info, not layout.

I know many people have critisism on the contents of the WIKI, but only a very sad percentage of them also made edits. I guess these are the same people who, on the street, will stand and do nothing while someone is beaten to death for no apparent reason.

I still feel the original concept which I had thought out will be a proper solution. However, getting it to work cross-site is a challenge, as well as getting certain parts log-in protected and other parts publicly available (to assist search engines).

I do lack both the knowledge and the funds to create a system, but I do feel a constructive discussion coming up.

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Vive la Marque !!

dear johan, dear hermann !

I always enjojed these sites incl. the bugatti register. To collect such a mass of recent photos of existing bugattis is really great. many , many years ago I started a scrap-book with all I could find about bugattis ( photos and articles). but due to the lack of space and due to some kind of " idiotism" I threw it away......
I often comunicated over this forum about the stupidness and arrogance from british marque clubs, stubborn dating or indentification comitees and so called " the only specialist in.." and so on.
bear always in mind, that the BOC was the first, who produced fake frames or chassis,
which they called:" allowed and allocated by the BOC".now they blame poeple, who do the same..
please, dont get worried about them, and don`t put down this great kind of work you have done.

bugatti`in yours
mike

The BC frame numbers are a laugh. How on earth can a hobby club (that is what it is) decide on issuing a frame number, with a date at least 50 years earlier, including all the legal consequences? Even for cars that have lost all their papers and even chassis plate, there still is the frame number, and one could work from there.
Already there things went terribly wrong. With the BC128 as the current peak: What will happen if I fit a T35 engine in my Ford Mondeo (it will fit, somehow), stick a Bugatti badge on the front and bring it to the BOC, saying this is what Jean Bugatti would have designed if he lived now. I will get a BC number, with a date somewhere prewar, and then:
-no road tax
-no seat belts needed
-nice discount on insurance
-admiration from the whole Bugatti community all over.

However, this is not the core of the discussion here.

What we have now, is a WIKI full of data, where some data is wrong. The people that know what is wrong do not make corrections, either because they fear the consequences (France rules the world...), are afraid they lose status, or any other reason, bar the possibilty that they do not care. As they do care, judging their discussions that are not public, and remarks on that discussion are only made anonymously. (I know this thread has been read by some of them. A reaction? No.)

I fully agree a new system should be constructed. The WIKI software is not much of a help in there. It does not fit the needs, and is buggy already.
I will start a new thread in which I will try to make clear what a new system should look like. Perhaps one day I will be able to find someone who can develop the software needed. I know these people, but I lack the funds. That is another problem to be solved.

_________________
Vive la Marque !!

Dear Friends

Every single e-mail I received since yesterday were very positive - even Herman is still speaking to me. I miss those days when I could offend the entire Bugatti community with a single sentence. This new-found respectability is sheer madness and must be stopped forthwith. Anyway, herewith a quote from a friend, I find his argument utterly compelling and I hope that some good will come from sharing it with you :

A) Per Fraud, etc? Best way to show "fraud/replica" is by identifying all the builders and parts made. The more of the people who can be identified and how to identify their parts and showing how rampant (500+ gran prix bodies!), etc are out there -- then and only then will people start to understand how rampant the replica/recreation problem is. My thinking is that it is better to identify this way and then later link the chassis with affected parts into as well. It's a roundabout way of doing it, but it will be the only way to get the result desired.

B) Identification of "replica/recreation" parts. Until all the Bugatti folks identify the items created, how do you know what you should be looking for? Very few are going to pipe up and post anything ... 60 plus years of fraud have already been committed.

C) You want a good book to write for the Bugatti community? Identify the above and what they built and when. I'm sure there are a lot more parts created than most people are willing to admit to. You'd be the reference source for the next 50 years in the Bugatti community.

D) I'd do C myself, but I don't have the time -- I'm so buried in projects/works for the next five years, I need to clone myself already.

My thanks to this gentleman and friend for giving me permission to quote the above. In his case anonymity is vital, he makes his living from restoring cars. Should he start talking his (paying) clients will take their business somewhere else. Something to keep in mind.

Someone told me I'm wasting my time with this, that my goals for a publicly accessible World Register is too ambitious and given the amount of money involved the truth is no longer attainable. I disagree, respectfully. We must have the courage to challenge ourselves to ever greater things, ever loftier goals - we just have to. Otherwise we diminish ourselves and the marque and I for one am not in the mood to embrace mediocrity. Surely none of us are?

I hereby publically call the members of BIG, the BOC, the Bugatti Trust, the ABC, the Dutch Bugatti Club, the members of all other Bugatti Clubs, and indeed all contributor's to Herman's inspired creation (it's called sucking up just in case you're wondering) to take up our sacred duty. The Information Age is in it's infancy and we are all pioneers, those who will document and share it with all will, I repeat, will attain immortality, that much I promise you. Hear me Gentlemen, the time for Bugattibuilder.com's Golden Revolution has come. Let us be worthy of the challenge. And one another.

The only enemy remains apathy.

I Remain most Cordially Yours
Johan Buchner

PS. I agree with everything you posted above Herman, especially the inactivity of the Senior Bugattisti. Hopefully this will change soon. One last thing, let us just keep in mind what has already been achieved ; this forum. We are not starting from scratch, we have a strong foundation on which to build and expand. What we are doing is good. We can do better still.

At least you got reactions. I got nothing but spam in my mailbox....

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Vive la Marque !!

To criticize Wiki, as you done it, it is easy.

There to bring exact information, it would be better.

That those which know, that they bring of information and Wiki will be better.

I brought much information on Wiki which comes from Registers

There are certainly errors. It is normal, but to criticize without announcing the errors precisely, it is useless. In this case keep for you criticisms.

For me they are three years of work, three years of improvement and much of the encouragements received from much Bugattistes.

Many people say that Wiki is well, including historians of Bugatti.

Those which tried to destroy Wiki, were not able to do it thanks to Herman

Thank you in Herman

Bugatti69

First of all, I'm glad that on my own site I do not pay real attention to chassisnumbers. Chassisnumbers are only a part of history in my opinion, and they are mostly the history of the cars, not the history of the marque itself.

However, I do appreciate all the work that has gone into the Wiki, and I admit I never added something myself. On the one hand because I did not have so much to add, on the other hand because I had no time to do so.

The Wiki of course has a great value, and it will continue to have that value. The best possible way to prevent errors (or "deliberate errors") is to provide as much as possible the sources where information came from. This way everybody can check data. Second important aspect (and you already have that) is that all changes in Wiki are recorded, so that deliberate fraudulent changes can be turned back. The Wiki should NOT be shut down. On the other hand, it will NEVER be 100% correct either. We will have to accept that. Also, the Wiki can not be used ON IT's OWN to prove the provenance of a certain car. The listed sources however can!

The Wiki also has an importance in identifying replica's (or recreations, whatever), by listing those separately.

Lastly, the current importance of chassisnumbers is mainly about value. In the 60's, chassisnumbers were of no interest at all, main object of any owner was to keep his car on the road. I wish that those days could return (Can I buy your Bugatti for 500 euro?) but I guess they never will, maybe after WW3.

And about Replica's: Currently in the USA a replica of the Bugatti 100P is being built, anybody has any objections?

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www.BugattiPage.com
www.BugattiRevue.com
www.BugattiAircraft.com

Thank you Jaap to have understood utility of Wiki. It is encouraging to want to continue

Christian

Thanks for the kind words. About the airplane: I hope it will fly as expected. On your question: Depends on the chassis number it will get, and the story that will get tied to that.

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Vive la Marque !!

following the then current numbering style,it will have to be 100P 002.Assuming the prototype is 001.

I disagree, Jean...it would be 100P/R.

Sandy

we shall have to agree then sandy ! there was only one T35.Every other one built was a replica.Dear me do I have to teach not only the French to speak english but the colonials as well ?? lol