Pur Sang at the Hostellerie Pur Sang ?

Legaleagle · **Joined:** Fri Feb 29, 2008 3:09 pm **Posts:** 109

Could this be the first time this "Bugatti" has been to Molsheim ??

Whitney Paine · **Joined:** Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:24 pm **Posts:** 154

J.J.Horst · **Posted:** Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:20 pm

Pur Sang (and other replicas for that matter, the Argentinians didn't invent the replica's, I believe that the English did... Wonder how there car industry is doing) cars are excepted at the Molsheim Festival. And, let's face it: Who's the genius; the man who designed it, or the fellow behind the lathe who made it?

Bugwrench · **Joined:** Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:16 pm **Posts:** 338

J.J.Horst wrote:

Pur Sang (and other replicas for that matter, the Argentinians didn't invent the replica's, I believe that the English did... Wonder how there car industry is doing) cars are excepted at the Molsheim Festival. And, let's face it: Who's the genius; the man who designed it, or the fellow behind the lathe who made it?

Do you think that the owner of the real thing is happy to see all these shit cars at a holy place like Molsheim? They stay away in increasing numbers....
Not good for the event.
Bugwrench

Legaleagle · **Joined:** Fri Feb 29, 2008 3:09 pm **Posts:** 109

Gentlemen

Can we try and raise the level of our discussions.

Can we start by agreeing what a REPLICA is ?

The dictionary defines a replica as an EXACT COPY.

On that basis there are NO BUGATTI replicas.

C & G have made cars that are superior in engineering terms to original Bugattis - superb toolroom cars but a bit glossier than the originals.

Pur Sangs aren't particulary wonderful in engineering terms and use various components like instruments and petrol taps that are nothing like the originals.

Dutton builds cars that are described on VSCC entry forms as Standard type 35Bs but which rev to 7,500 rpm reliably with a nice modern plain bearing crank. The fastest so-called "Bugatti" (which won at Angouleme)
had the orignal advance and retard mechanism replaced by a plain shaft and presumably a modern advance and retard mechanism and distributor.

The fastest "type 51" around has a very murky backgound and is listed in the England Bugatti Club register with brackets round its claimed chassis number indicating that even the club has its doubts. Its speed comes from a very fancy carb. made in the nineties by a very clever engineer from the oil industry who has been trying to work out how to make the standard carb. on his type 43 work properly for the last fifty years. The new carb. bears no resemblance to a standard item but no one gets to see it and every year the speeds go up a bit.

There are no original Bugattis being raced now and no repllicas either, only modified original cars and cars which are loose copies of originals built, in some cases, to much lower engineering standards.

I have no problem with replica Bugattis as long as we know what they are, but I ain't seen one yet.

J.J.Horst · **Posted:** Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:38 am

In this forum we are now ending up in the same discussion as what killed the French forum; they ended up constantly only quarreling over replica's - non original cars and the 100% original Bugattis. In my opinion all replica's, however you may define them, are a fact of (Bugatti) life, if you like it or not.

The only thing that you (not I, I don't have such a knowledge on individual chassis as some of you guys have. I only know much about the 100P, and I don't even know the chassis number of that one!) can do is increase knowledge about individual cars, publishing the knowledge in the Wiki and making it more difficult for crooks to sell non-original cars as being original. I don't have nothing against replica's, selling one as an original is what should be stopped.

But then-- it's all caused by the money. How many museums have an imitation van Gogh hanging on the wall, without them knowing!?

Whitney Paine · **Joined:** Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:24 pm **Posts:** 154

"Can we start by agreeing what a REPLICA is ?

The dictionary defines a replica as an EXACT COPY.

On that basis there are NO BUGATTI replicas."

Precisely! There are no exact replicas. I have worked for over 2 years looking at every single plan produced for the original Type 35 and have come to the conclusion that even the best "replicas" are just approximations of the original. These best reps represent a minority subset of the total number of "replicas". Of these, almost all - if not all - have major changes from the original car - notably the crank in order to increase reliability and such like.

Can you imagine a Ferrari V12 being changed for a V6 to increase reliability or a classic Citroen having it's troublesome hydraulics taken off for the same reason?! To my mind if you want a replica of a car you love, you take it warts and all.

I am looking at the plans for the wheel and wheel flange and they have over 100 measurements between them. Even a simple gear lever bracket has exactly 30. Multiply that up by hundreds of parts to get a "replica" exact. I can't see it happening - especially as my work was undetaken on the strict understanding "replicas" were unacceptable, so I assume that the same applies to plans for other people - in other words I am guessing they have worked using another method of creating parts.

SB

bugatti69 · **Posted:** Tue Mar 11, 2008 2:28 pm

Type 35 Grand Prix Replica by Pur Sang Argentina

to see: http://www.bugattibuilder.com/wiki/inde ... 1923_LW_76

Bugwrench · **Joined:** Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:16 pm **Posts:** 338

[quote="bugatti69"]Type 35 Grand Prix Replica by Pur Sang Argentina

to see: http://www.bugattibuilder.com/wiki/inde ... 1923_LW_76
/quote]

With all respect but why is 1926 mentioned as year of production?
As long as this type of errors (or fraud in this case) is included in WIKI I am afraid there is still a long way to go.
Bugwrench

William Kelsey · **Joined:** Wed Jul 18, 2007 4:01 pm **Posts:** 66

I read this stuff with curiosity and amazement.

Seems to me there are three types. One is the outright fraud type. They claim it is original in whole or in part when it clearly is not. The second type is the re-creation - a car that is built to resemble an original as nearly a possible. The Pur-Sang cars of Argintina come to mind in that example. Then there are others that, like mine, are not copies or even close.

The first type, I really have trouble with. One of the basic human rights we all have is to get what we pay for. If we pay for an original and it is a fake, we have been cheated. It also cheats the memory of the original creator of the item.

The second type I have no difficulty with - well not until they start with the monkey business of using chassis numbers that went with cars that were built by Bugatti of Molsheim.

The third type is okay with me too. Many of us want that part of the Bugatti experience we can afford. No harm is apparently being done to anybody.

Fact is: There are only a handful of Bugatti's left in the world. Of the small number left, there are only a few of them that actually run and, if a guy like me wants to drive one, it is impossible. A guy like me either builds his own or he will never know what kinds of thrills the guys who had them eighty years ago were really like. Even then, it is not exactly the same but it will be as close as possible in my case.

Herman · **Posted:** Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:46 pm

You are so right.

The difficult thing is that the replicas (Pur Sang and others) need original chassis numbers to get them road registered, as otherwise they need to comply with current regulations. There is no easy solution for that.

Odin · **Posted:** Tue Mar 11, 2008 11:27 pm

Gentleman,
I'm reading your posts, very carefully. Since 1995, I own a PS Replica and drive her in Chile, not with Bugatti Papers. I'm planning, to move back to Europe, with my Cars. What shall I do, sell the Replica, or trying to matriculate her as used Car from 1995, or using a Bugatti Chassis Number, to get her on the Street. I have no intention, to cheat anybody.
On the other hand I see, that most people, are using, in the same Situation, Original Papers and are even accepted, for some historic Events.
Most likely, when I will sell my car one time, somebody will try to earn money.
I would be very interested, to hear, what would you do in my case, to get the car on the street.

Regards
Jörg

Herman · **Posted:** Wed Mar 12, 2008 11:36 am

I think there is 2 options:

Either get original papers, or chassis number, and get it on the road as a Bugatti. (Your papers will say: Bugatti type 35B, year 1927, chassis 4914)

Or get it on the road as a kit car (Your papers will say: Pur Sang type 35B, year 1995, chassis ERTWSFFHETYEFFSHHT004552)

In the first instance, you will pay some import duties (differ from product to product, and from country to country) and perhaps tax. (I have no idea how much stuff you can bring in from out of Europe without paying tax). I thought it was limited to 1 car anyhow.

In the second instance, you also run the risk (at least in the Netherlands) to pay an extra tax, which is 40% of new price, and 1% of that sum is deducted for every month the car is old. (so if it is 9 years and 4 months old, you will not pay the tax anymore).

I have no idea how regulations are with kit cars, which safety devices should be present, and I think that differs from country to country anyhow. Please check with the authorities of the destination country about your options.

As you can see, authorities make it much more tempting to just get it registered as a Bugatti, and thus promoting the problems that are discussed on this forum so much.

Pur Sang at the Hostellerie Pur Sang ?

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