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 Post subject: Type 35 wheel
PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 11:41 pm 
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Have been kindly sent the L J K Setright article on Bugatti wheels by Patrick.

L J K S states that the average weight of the cast wheels for the Type 35 - 51 was 28LB.

Thought I better check what my "virtual" early wheel came out at and the weight including 32 bolts and the flange is 24.2LB - based on a generic aluminium.

Close, but needing further investigation I think.

JPEG here -

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 4:30 pm 
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The larger brake drums might do the difference...

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Vive la Marque !!


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:23 pm 
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Your drawing shows a 32 screw 1924 beaded edge wheel that after Lyon hardly has been used as the factory converted immediately to the 24 screw wheel.
I guess there should be a slight weight difference between the beaded edge and the wired-on rim version. You then have the small and large drum version and finally the late T35B/T51 well base rim. But which one was meant by LJKS?
Regards, Bugwrench


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 8:33 am 
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Setright did not specify which one he meant; he makes repeated reference to the T35/51 wheel.

And let us remember; Setright believed Roland to be a better artist than Rembrandt Bugatti. Maybe he was wrong about the weight of the wheels as well.

A brilliant writer, but an infuriating man.

Regards
Johan


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 Post subject: Type 35 wheel
PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 11:07 pm 
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Can it be revealed where I might find the L J K Setright article on Bugatti wheels?

As regards Bugatti GP wheels, I am only aware of the excellent research that Griffith Borgeson did on the subject. This resulted in a separate chapter in his Bugatti book, but was also published in article form in the Clasic and Thoroughbred Cars and the Fanatique Automobile magazines.

The wheel shown in Whitney Paine's, aka Stuart Brown's, drawing is an early 32 screw wheel. However the rim is a beaded edge rim, whereas the original Lyon wheel had a flat rim for the wired-on tires that where so unsuccesfull in the 1924 Lyon race. As esteemed Mr Bugwrench states, this wheel can only have had a very short carreer as the regular 270mm brake drum beaded edge wheel (35CH172) had 24 screws.

It is interesting that most consider the 330mm brake drum detachable rim wheel and the 330mm brake drum well-base wheels T35 and T51 modifications. In fact both modification carry T43 part/drawing numbers: 43CH8 and 43CH10 for the detachable rim and 43CH83 for the well-base wheels. The latter may have been a T43A modification and indeed also the ultimate factory T35B's had these well-base wheels. The source of this information is in Conway's GP Bugatti book (Table 2 of the Appendix).

I understand that the drawing project is an "early non-Lyon Bugatti Type 35". Perhaps Whitney/Stuart can explain to us what the definition is of an early non-Lyon Bugatti Type 35 and why it should have an obscure, short-lived version of the aluminium road wheel and a 1948 modification of a water pump greaser component?


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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 10:01 am 
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Hi,

Quite a lot to get through to respond to the above response and the Water Pump thread elsewhere - and like most people, I have a life outside the forum!

So here comes an hour or so of answering your questions over a few responses.

Firstly, L J K Setright - Not good quality, but here is an article from him. Johan has I believe another couple of articles.

Image

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Image

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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 11:14 am 
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My definition of an early Type 35 is one of the post Lyon production models produced before summer 1925.

Going onto wheels:

Wheel - 35 CH 17 - 25/04/24

Beaded edge wheel - Part no and date of drawing not known (by me anyway). Page 250 of GP Bugatti quotes different dates and part numbers, but even a cursory look shows a 1925 wheel flange as quoted below, paired with a wheel drawn much later (with caveats). I have not had a chance to follow this through to get better info on dates, but will do. Perhaps the forum can help in the meantime?

....and wheel flanges:

Wheel flange - flat rim 32 holes - 35 CH 20 - 24/04/24

Wheel flange - beaded edge 32 holes - 35 CH 175 - 18/03/25

I have drawn/modelled the beaded edge wheel with the flange 35 CH 175 even though it was obscure and short lived as I believe this to be the correct version for the car I am creating. If I am wrong, please let me know.

The wheels incidently illustrate perfectly two important aspects of the project:
1) Getting the correct part on the correct version of the car is a minefield for the unwary/lazy and the reason why I believe going back to the cars DNA being the plans is essential in ensuring that correct originality is retained coupled with asking people who have an in depth knowledge of the car.
2) Most Bugatti's in existence have wheels that are finished in a way that is not "as per factory". Look at the early Bugatti Type 35 wheel at the Bugatti Trust. The finish is not the polished one you see on most cars today.

Picture of the wheel below:

Image

I am going to return to the mystery part/water pump thread now, but would like to say - and I will re-iterate this on the other thread - that I don't pretend to know all the answers and yes there may be mistakes in the project. However, the car contains thousands of parts, so mistakes are inevitable.

However, my presence here, thousands of hours work on the project and the very frequent trips to the Trust where my work is critiqued by Bugatti experts (often 3 at a time!) are intended to glean info from people who know the car inside out, so the project can converge to a very accurate definition of what the car would have been like as it rolled of the production line (so to speak). I would not be surprised if details were still being changed in 10 years time as new information came to light, however even now, what has been created is very, very accurate.

Finally, the water pump is created from drawings that date no later than 1925........................


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 10:11 pm 
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Thank you very much for posting the Setright article. As I mentioned I was not aware of its existance.

Let me first mention that I am very appreciative of the fantastic work that Stuart is accomplishing and I was merely provocative to add to my own knowledge.

BTW: your picture of the early Bugatti Type 35 wheel at the Bugatti Trust has the regular 24 screw flange. And this is not all that I have discovered!

The subject clearly invites further investigation. If you would would care to refer to Raffaelli's Bugatti Hunter, there is only one illustration of a 32 screw flange at page 101 (top picture). The other Lyon pictures in as far as discernable all seem to show 24 screw rims! Of particular interest are the pictures on page 108 (Raffaelli), which show the Lyon 24 version in clear detail, and with only 12 screws in use.

The contemporary San Sebastien pictures of barely a month later already show the regular 24 screw beaded edge version.

So, there you go...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2008 12:05 pm 
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Hi,

Had a brief look at the Wiki to see if any 1925 cars had the wheel I have re-created. No luck - but I was in a hurry.

Will have a look in the Trust's archives when I go up there in a few days.

Regards


SB


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2008 5:50 pm 
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Some more GP wheel talk… Published in the may 1979 issue of “Thoroughbred and classic cars”

Page 1 of 5 http://www.bugattibuilder.com/photo/albums/userpics/10010/1~4.jpg
Page 2 of 5 http://www.bugattibuilder.com/photo/albums/userpics/10010/2~4.jpg
Page 3 of 5 http://www.bugattibuilder.com/photo/albums/userpics/10010/3~4.jpg
Page 4 of 5 http://www.bugattibuilder.com/photo/albums/userpics/10010/4~3.jpg
Page 5 of 5 http://www.bugattibuilder.com/photo/albums/userpics/10010/5~2.jpg


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 Post subject: T 35 wheel
PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 6:59 am 
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There are more small differents on T35 wheels.
For the old wheels, the position of the screw for the rim on the wheel.
Some wheels had the screws on both sides of the spoke, most of the wheels had the screw in the middle of the spoke.
There where also different type op rims, some flat from the outside, some with a kind of nose on it.[/img][img]


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