As can be seen from the threads re the wheel and the mystery part/water pump getting the correct part and version of a part on the correct car is a thorny issue to say the least.

For example Bugwrench - who I have total respect for and whose knowledge far exceeds myself being a recent Bugatti convert who's skill is on a PC and who has never got his hands dirty on "real" cars - notes that he has never seen a couple of the water pump parts on a Type 35.

Now I totally believe him, but does this mean they were never used? After all the Bugatti drawing office went to the trouble of designing the part and all the bits it is attached to - or perhaps way back a number of similar parts were simplified by the people of the time to just one version and it became normal for this part to be used. There are many other possible scenarios and I won't bore you with them.

So my question is this. I am of the opinion the best originality is achieved by initially going back to the original plans, then looking at pictures from the time the car was built, then speaking to experts (the older the better and the oilier the hands the better) and then finally looking at cars that exist now. What method do people like Bugwrench use to ensure that what they create is as per factory to the best of their knowledge?

Finally, research takes time. Without naming names, what are the chances of spending a fortune on a restoration only to find what has been created is not even close to how the car should be. i.e. Are most Bugatti restorers and marque specialists like Aston marque specialists (who I have had experience of) who are essentially sales people with a good line in bs.

Hi Stuart

After I finished writing my response to the ongoing T35 wheel thread, I saw your latest post and found it quite thought-provoking. To me your reasoning is quite sound; certainly starting with the factory blueprints would seem to be the quickest route to accurately capturing the design, but, purely for my own peace of mind, you understand, allow me to ask the obvious : Are you digitising a specific T35 variant, or a specific car? No, I'm not being facetious, allow me to explain : a friend of mine, owner and restorer of a mouth watering collection of post-war Alfa Romeos and Lancias tells me that getting the exact specifications, especially for Alfa electrical components, is an ongoing nightmare. Apparently the factory would fit whatever was in stock, regardless of what was printed in the instruction manuals. How consistent was Bugatti? Stuart, I promise you, even after reading the complete Conway I still do not know whether all 2l, unblown T35's had the small radiator, or whether all T51's used the Miramas type. Yes, I do know the radiator was enlarged when the T and TC was introduced but they did not stop producing the earlier versions, and yes, all the T51A's I've seen has, what seems like, the "Lyon" radiator. And a radiator is out in the open, clear for everyone to see and comment on. How you are ever going to get agreement, let alone a definitive agreement by all known Bugatti historians, on something like the exact specs of a water-pump, seems like an impossibility to me. I do promise you, however, your earnest search for accuracy does result in the most fascinating debate. I keep neglecting my work, just to be able to keep up. (Q.E.D?) And look on the bright side, at least I have no advise for you!

There is an old saying : "If you want something done, ask a busy man", but I fear my questions may turn out to be the straw that caused the camel such discomfort. Please don't view these as being either urgent or important, but perhaps something to mull over when you have a quiet moment.

Borgeson made quite a few provocative statements about the T35 wheel. Roland Bugatti remembers them as being "de la merde", but, as a contributor to this forum has pointed out, Bugatti did not lose many races through wheel failure now did he? And Roland was a toddler in 1924, how could his recollections be trusted, especially by so a renowned historian as Griffith Borgeson?

I also recall him quoting Roland as saying that they were very cheap to manufacture, yet modern versions costs substantially more than equivalent wire wheels. Certainly William Kelsey found wire wheels more economically viable than Ivan Dutton's versions. What conclusions have you drawn from your research? Did Ettore improve the wheel? Any thoughts on manufacturing costs? And finally, Conway states that his own research with aircraft landing gear would seem to indicate that the shape of the wheel has little to no influence on the cooling of either the brakes or the tires (Ettore's stated reason for submitting the French patent) Do you have any thoughts on the matter?

Allow me to conclude with a personal observation; there would seem to be those in the Bugatti fraternity who believe that public distribution of research such as this could lead to the manufacturing of replicas all but indistinguishable from an original. My own belief is that if a master craftsman goes to the trouble of building such a T35, pride in his achievement would make him want to stand father to such a work of art. And even if there are those willing to swap their principles for mere money, allow me to state the obvious : A car built in 2008, cannot have a true provenance predating it's date of construction. There will have to be a substantial amount of skulduggery, and, sooner or later, the truth will out, probably by one or more of the contributors to this very forum. Knowledge, like technology, cannot be either good or evil; for that you need the heart of man.

Just a thought.

Kind Regards
Johan Buchner

Allow me to add to this discussion that the factory drawings of the twenties are useful but very often differ from the actual (original!) piece. The main purpose of Molsheim was to produce cars, so modifications in the shop often were put to paper long after the fact or sometimes not at all. It is well known that some dimensions make no sense at all or were deviated from - as a standard.... Also keep in mind that the phenomenon 'old stock' existed back then, meaning that the early GP cars had many Brescia and T30 parts fitted and vice versa: the last Brescia's had early T40 chassis (at least the last ten or so).
The morale: drawings are never the holy grail. Go and look (measure) cars that have an undisputed reputation for being original and unrestored or untouched. And even then keep in mind that Molsheim serviced many older Bugatti's (and acted as used car dealer, a very important profit maker!!). This means improved parts were fitted to older cars, or sometimes more convenient parts like a larger radiator for warmer climate.

One last remark: the hand print of the craftsman was not on drawing...javascript:emoticon(':wink:')
Wink

Regards,

Teesse

Hi,

Thanks for the reply Theesse.

I agree and disagree with what you say in almost equal measure, but every point is a valid line of reasoning.

I am just walking out the door now and will be busy all day, so will place a proper response this evening or tomorrow.

Regards


SB

Allow me to add to this discussion that the factory drawings of the twenties are useful but very often differ from the actual (original!) piece.

Very rarely do they differ. The standard of draftsmanship exhibited in the factory drawings is superb.
Over the last 2.5 years I have examined in depth getting on for 1000 factory drawings and only a tiny percentage do not fit perfectly with complimentary parts.

The designs have been reviewed by marque experts and they are happy with their accuracy. The designs have also been subject in some cases to open review on this forum and any errors noted have been debated and solved on most occasions.

As any one who has worked in manufacturing knows, "as builts" are a fact of life and therefore, you cannot rule out changes to parts on the workshop floor.

However - and this is important - any decent design office records as builts under new part numbers to record the changes accurately. I believe that Ettore Bugatti ran a reasonably efficient design office and therefore although the odd part may have slipped throught the net (features on the early aluminium wheels), the vast majority of changes I feel would have been recorded in accordance with good design practice.

It is well known that some dimensions make no sense at all or were deviated from - as a standard

Like what?

Including clocks and magneto parts, there are thousands of parts in a GP Bugatti. The vast majority - like 99% plus - fit together perfectly. The dimensions that make no sense at all are within the interaction of five major assemblies (the definition of assembly, is I guess open to conjecture). The solution to the problems involves altering a maximum of nineteen dimensions. Nineteen dimensions in an assembly that quite easily includes 30,000 plus dimensions (3000x10 dims per part....vvvvv rough guess). That is a standard of accuracy and draftsmanship that is bordering on genius level.

Also keep in mind that the phenomenon 'old stock' existed back then

Makes sense.

However, Bugwrench's point comes to mind, being. What proof have you that a particular part existed on a particular batch/year of cars? The drawing was created - presumably for a reason and not just to keep the draftsman busy. So was it used in anger or not? I agree with BW's infered point that you should provide some proof (if possible) that a drawn part was used.

drawings are never the holy grail

No, but they are the holy gra. Drawings are the cars DNA. This coupled with speaking to people who know the vehicles and can back up their reasoning are the way to getting true accuracy.

Go and look (measure) cars that have an undisputed reputation for being original and unrestored or untouched

I don't believe such cars exist. How do you know Pierre (made up name) did not came back from the cafe rather the worse for wear in 1933 and make a complete cobblers of a totally original car - or fit some bits he had lying around?

I have answered your questions, so I have one for you.

Is your line of questioning to do with Hugh Conways letter in Octane magazine as scanned below?



Regards


SB

Hi,

Just reread my post and the tone seems pretty confrontational and possibly angry.

I am not. Unfortunately, I have a bit of an abrasive style of writing, especially when busy, and for this please accept my apologies.

Also, the comment about no such cars existing is a bit too final when so many cars have disappeared, so if anyone can prove me wrong on that opinion it would be great.

Regards


SB

If the Chairman of the Bugatti Trust is worried, perhaps it is time to panic. I am especially concerned over how many cars with fake provenances there are now. In the interest of clarity, allow me to state a hypothetical case, and then, if the contributors to this forum can comment on it, perhaps some good will hopefully come from it.

Let us suppose that a crook and a fraudster is masquerading as Bugatti enthusiast, and let us suppose that he has 2 cars for sale ; one, a T37, rebuilt from little more than a chassis plate and a pair of chassis side rails. This car has now been rebuilt as a T51, and carries the identity of a genuine, but lost car. The second; a T35B as built by Pur Sang, carries, again, the identity of a lost car.

Now, to achieve in his goal of passing these to fakes on for a vast profit, how would he do it? Hoe would he advertise it? How would he try and prevent the genuinely knowledgeable from inspecting the car? What kind of documentation would he have, and how would he have obtained it? Genuine documentation belonging to the lost cars, total forgeries, or both? What about either the cars, or the seller, should raise the red flags? I am also curious to know what, if any laws were broken, and what recourse a buyer so duped has available to him?

Finally, and this is the answer I'm really dreading, how many cars are laying false claim to identities they are not entitled to?

Allow me to conclude with a personal observation ; a Type 40 is not any less desirable than a Type 37, just as a Type 37 is not any less of a car than a Type 35B. As Mark Twain put it : "On the whole it does seem a pity that Noah and his party did not miss the boat altogether."

Life Happens
Johan Buchner

Well, with a T40 you have very little chance that you will be sold a replica, as replica prices are almost the same; no gain there.

There are also possibilities to get your right, as happened last year when somebody in the USA bought a T35B and a T43, both sold as originals, but in reality argentinians. In the end, he got the price difference back.

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JJH - Didn't you go to Argentina to see Pur Sang?

Did you see reams of original plans?

SB

Jaap, I presume in the case you mention that both the seller and buyer were American, and if so, the entire matter would have been dealt with by the American Judiciary. But what if the seller were from the E.U. ; which country's legal system would have had jurisdiction?

Stuart, if memory serve correctly, Classic & Sports Car carried a news item about David Sewell visiting Pur Sang, perhaps you can contact him for comment. While I am at it, does any-one know what the owners of genuine Bugattis, especially the G.P. cars, make of companies like Pur Sang?

Johan

I think they are not popular with genuine owners.

Regards


SB

British understatement can be so devastatingly effective, not true? So Pur Sang is "not popular." I can believe it, I really can.

Thanks for putting a smile on my face.
Johan

Nevertheless the BOC allocates BC numbers to these misconceptions!
How deep can a B U G A T T I Club sink??
Bugwrench

I never got by to visit them, though they invited me various times.

So, I don't know if they hold original plans, or that they made there own plans from existing parts

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I don't know exactly where the seller came from, it seems that it was not the US. I don't know about the legal technicalities, just heard that it happened, and also to somebody quite knowledgeable in matters Bugatti.

Many of the owners of original cars dislike the Pur Sang's, usually home-made truthful replica's are better accepted.

On the other hand, for many Bugatti enthusiasts, with prices for original GP cars going near a million euro or more, a Pur Sang will be the only thing they will be able to afford in their lifetime, to own something that comes closest to the real thing. Not everybody has the skill and time to be working on their own replica for 10 or more years!

In my opinion, these replica's in themselves are no problem, the only problem is that there are scammers who try to sell new cars as original. It would have been a good gesture (and I asked them about that), if Pur Sang would mark all parts with something like "PS", in order to make fakes a lot harder to be sold as originals.....

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