You are all aware of the old saying : "Be careful what you wish for, you may just get it." Now that an owner of a Bugatti has joined this forum with the express purpose of discovering the history of his chassis, this saying has come back to bite me on the ass.

Let's just look at it from the point of view of this owner : Being in the lucky position of owning T51, and having a good faith belief that it is chassis 51138, he has now heard from all of the truly dedicated and knowledgeable historians contributing to this forum that, in all probability, this is not chassis 51138, and, furthermore, that one of the previous owners, one Ted Lloyd, is (was?) a bit of a rogue.

Can you imagine the crushing disappointment being felt by this man? So what are we to do now? My personal belief is that the most helpful course of action, would be to welcome this owner into the circle, and do everything in our power to establish the following : What, if any, proof is there that this is chassis 51138? What, if any, proof is there that this is not chassis 51138? In which case, what is it?

Should we, however, treat this man with derision and mockery (A habit I take full responsibility for starting) will we actually achieve anything except to alienate some-one who may otherwise play a valued role in preserving the rapidly diminishing legacy of Ettore Bugatti? Should this turn out to be a T35A or T37 chassis sold to him as a T51, I agree, it will indeed be a tale of deceit and immoral profiteering, but neither a T35A or a T37 is worthless. Quite the contrary, every surviving Bugatti component has worth, and all must be done to preserve these in a manner that adds to the greater good. Yes, T51's are fabulous cars, and less than half of the 40 odd that were built survive intact. Yes, many more T35A's and T37's survive, and their prices reflect this. Yes, an assembled car, built up from a combination of diverse but existing components (plus a few newly manufactured items thrown in for good measure) is worth less money than an original car, but, providing that there is no attempt to lay claim to a false provenance, such a vehicle is, and must remain, a worthwhile addition to the Bugatti legacy. Such a car can be used and raced harder than the precious originals for instance. The Monaco winner, one of the most original surviving racers of al, must be used with extreme care, its history and condition will turn any owner smashing it into a wall during the Monaco Historic the collector car equivalent of a child molester.

To onebugatti the following : Firstly, thank you for joining this forum and searching for the history of your car. I am a fervent believer, like most, that knowledge shared freely helps to preserve the truth. And by the simple act of sharing your precious possession with us, people like myself, not in a position to ever afford a Bugatti, can still enjoy gaining knowledge, and even better, add to this common pool of knowledge.

However, the course of action you have taken does leave you open to some very keen disappointment. Your car may not be what you believe it to be, and should you chassis turn out to be something that is not 51138, you must have the courage and integrity to accept this, and redouble your efforts to ascertain the true history of that which you so obviously love and care for. Not an easy thing to do, I am sure, but the alternative is self-deception, and should it ever come to sell your car, claiming a false provenance is illegal. And while the legal consequences are not that serious, the harm to your reputation will be permanent. For confirmation read up on what Ken Lawrence tried to do with an Aston Martin.

Sir, it may very well be that you have been mislead and cheated, and for that I am truly sorry. This is all in the past, and you cannot and must not allow this unfortunate event to darken your own soul. Speak to everyone, post as many photos of your car on this forum as you whish, who knows, the truth may turn out even more exciting than you thought. But, please, do not withdraw in disgust and hide your Bugatti away until such time that you can pass on your misfortune to another. This will make you no better than those who cheated you.

Remember this, you own a Bugatti, a privilege few of us will ever enjoy. Life has been good to you, now is the time for you to show what you are made of. I whish you the best of luck. And to the Grand Prix Bugatti historians I simply ask that the hand of friendship and brotherhood be extended to this man. We owe it to ourselves to go on a voyage of discovery, what we find may enrich us all.

With Deep Gratitude
Johan Buchner

Great! 3 different threads now about 51138, plus one which is directly related. I would like to post, but as I don't know where I have 2 options now - stay quiet or open a new thread....!

Hi Michael

It makes absolutely no difference where you post, it is a T51 after all. More than one thread is perfectly acceptable, the only tragedy would be if you post nothing at all. I am dying to know what you make of this one. Perhaps a new thread is called for, that way you can sort of recap all the info on the three separate cars all laying claim to chassis number 51138. But what I am really interested in is your conclusions, and the reactions amongst the rest to them.

Also remember that information about several other cars got mentioned so far, who knows what other fascinating bits of history these threads will still reveal. Just to give an example, I was unaware of Ted Lloyd until now. So just post Michael, it does not matter where.

Today is Pebble Beach! I shall post the winner as soon as I know.

Regards
Johan

Thank you for that thoughtful post Mr. J. It was certainly a happy read to at least to be welcomed, and warned... . God bless the universe on this one, it does steer it's own course.

I have owned this Bugatti for many years, and over the past 7 years I have been VERY reluctant to share any information regarding it. Basically because I was not sure precisely WHICH T51 I had. Factually I have not touched the original paint that still sports the chassis, or the overlapping next coat of paint that is another clue in the waiting. I have studied in-depth the differences of a late T35B, and the changes that were made to these late T35 models in their transformation to the early T51's.

I know the difference in a T35A frame, a T37 frame, I know what an original T51 frame is. I also know how close of a call a late production T35B is, when it was converted to a T51. I also know the differences between 51136 and 51138, and why their on track history makes 51138 different. I also know that I have focused on 51138 not for any financial reason whatsoever. I came to that logical reason this is 51138 from mathematics, examinations, and existing research and pure luck.

Now, there are personalities in the Bugatti world, grown men that do stupid things for ego, greed, and fantasy. I am only a mere custodian of this Bugatti, it comes to me by discovery and being at the right place at the right time . I have nothing on my side but this Bugatti in my stable. The facts will be judged and reviewed, and it will be what it is. I haven't selected a lost number to relate this frame to the number 51138, I just believe at this time that this is the real chassis 51138. I make that statement with belief through it's history, physical examinations and the misleading facts about the other cars claiming that 51138 number...oh yes, and my years of study.

What I am asking for is ; period photos of anything relating to 51138, and facts concerning this particular chassis number as it relates the origin of the other 2 cars and all general information on the Bugatti (s) we know as 51138. We all know there was a major mix up with 51138 in the early 1950's history, and we all know it has never been sorted out. We know the history of the engine, and where it went and why, but the chassis has been in question for decades. I am keen on gathering more information to fill in blanks in it's post war life.

Of course I am open minded and logical. This car has hung on my wall like a trophy for years. I examined it, compared it, tested it, measured it,
studied it, and treat it without disturbing its untouched condition since day one of my custodianship.

If I thought it was a T37a, or a T35B, C, or a 2,3 liter T51 I would have come to that conclusion by now. In these cases, I have not. I have focused on 51138 because of hard core facts that I will share with a forum with the spirit that makes Bugattist a breed apart.

There are nay sayers out there. Once I considered selling her. That was a weak moment indeed ! Once word spread that week ( it was only a 8 day moment of stupidity) , three of the big Bugattist were banging at the door for it. At that time I had not gotten close to the 51138 number link, never mentioned a connection.

Now, I am close. In layman's terms red hot close. That is my reason for my entry on this NEW found forum, I just fell on this by Googling 51138.....

So, I am really looking for help with this. I want to make sure I am 100% correct, if there is such a thing. There is information out in the field that will prove I am right, or absolutely wrong. Currently, I am just ON COURSE. It will be the open minded and real Bugattist that help me on this.

I first sat in a Bugatti 35 years ago. A gentleman in Knightsbridge full stopped in front of me, and we started talking. He was a tall man, white haired. I was driving a Mk 6 Bentley and my question to him was, where do you find parts? He said, I make them. That was Hugh Conway.

Since then I have owned a few cars he wrote about. Three to be precise. All that was written and printed was incorrect, and really at the time, it was likely all the information he had or had received for a reason. Some of those now biblical information was just plain misinterpreted by this master. That happens, and so goes the world.

My point is, it ain't over til the fat lady sings. I hope this forum will assist in the background music whatever tune that might be.

I thank you all, from your reflections to opinions - your critics and your help, all is more than welcome. It is not everyday that a T51 surfaces, and if this is the case you will read a very interesting discovery .