The list of "type 59s" above does not include the car owned by Mr. Kellog in the USA which the UK BOC list as a Type 59 "Replica"

It is of course neither a type 59 as we know it, or a Bugatti, or a replica of a Bugatti.

All true, however, I still think it a very beautiful car. And it's left-hand drive. Unusual.

T57/59 Kellog = BC 128 (list herebefore supplemented)

to see on wiki: http://www.bugattiregister.com/wiki/ind ... tle=BC_128

I remember the Cork chassis, ex: Cesari, many years ago, and the theories on it's originality. I believe, along with the registers of the clubs, that the chassis is the ''Cork'' car, and the chassis is the car. There is another frame, believed original but clearly stamped by Jones with # 6, that is BC159. On seeing the real Cork chassis 441352, and listening to Ray J. for a few day I was convinced. His knowledge on the T59's, and his on site experience at Mosheim makes the car creditable on it's own merits. The BOC has plagued him forever, never assisting him with his own research and denying him the chassis plate which I believe was swapped with a plate on the car now. Hugh nearly gave it to him, and promised it to him, yet the milieu of the BOC made that not happen. Jones has been very open regarding this car and always asking 3 times the value which pissed people off who wanted it, fueling the fire of the haves and have nots.

I remember him showing the Cork car at Amelia Island in 1997, first time out. He was black-balled because the car would not start. He clearly told them he did not prepare the car for running yet, last minute details to make their show, and the engine which really required a massive technical outlay of funds that he didn't have ( it is like a Auto Union in detail) . He was very honest about that, I was standing there and heard it, and they put him at the back of the show, nearly punishing him instead of thanking him for showing the Bug. He then said it had a wooden crankshaft, a typical Jones diffusing for judges and experts that would have them asking, ''Really, wood?'' Ray would just grin.

The Cork car, and the detail was fabulous. Jones will go down as a infamous legend in the Bugatti history, right or wrong, he has a knowledge that exceeds most of us, combined. My point is the association of a good car with club members not having a royalty or wealth background. Much of the good points of fine documentation is mixed with the egos of men who never had the chance to own the best Bugattis, each searching for a creditability from concealed knowledge, guarded like the Holy Grail.

Make this knowledge public, and their phones stop ringing. If you have not owned the cars and studied them in silence, then you have missed a point of view that can not be learned. That is something that should be considered with every car research, and shared. Much of what is written and told, is hearsay, rehashed old data, and re-organized data taken out of context without a sharp awareness to history, reasoning ,logic and modern date math.

That is what makes the Bugatti world so interesting, there are personalities, great unique cars, and finite mechanical detail that all has to be sorted and reconsidered with today's brain power of a new generation searching for overlooked facts. I see that in this forum, and all of you out there should be commended for this great sourcing of data from new prospective. It is exciting stuff, and the right stuff.

I remember years ago having bought my first big Bug. It was an amazing car sold my order of the estate of a former BOC president. I was the unsuspecting high bidder, suddenly the owner - Wow. In 4 minutes the phone rang. ''Sir, you have outbid me by my own error''. ''Oh'', I said. ''I just wanted to inform you that the chassis to the Bugatti you just bought, has a replica chassis'' ,the stuffy voice of a modern day Lord said. I thought, oh god, I'll hit the Lowes wall on this one now. The voice continued,'' I will take the car off of you regardless...., and would mention the wrong engine you are unaware of also.''

Within 40 hours, panicked , I had the bloody body off my stump puller, and low and behold, frame number 3 was feasting my eyes in all it's original glory.

The engine? Oh, clearly restamped to avoid Customs and documented by Hugh as the wrong motor.... The rumor continued for years until the Bug changed hands to someone with more money than me.

Point is, you don't have to be a weather man to know which way the wind blows.

I truly enjoyed your words onebugatti, thank you very much. Your dealings with actual cars provided me with a moment of rare insight : There is paper history, and then there is metal. To a very large extent what we deal with here is paper, books, documents, private research and then we discuss it among ourselves, and update our files accordingly. (Lately I've been adding a lot of question-marks to mine)

As to what the monoposto T51(?) at Mulhouse actually is, even though it exists, can be studied, looked at, photographed, still so many mysteries remain. I mull this over in mind and now I'm thinking that a T59 built 10 or 20 years ago can be used guilt-free, the owner of a priceless original carries the burden of safe guarding the precious heritage for future generations. Is metal without a story less worthy than metal with provenance? I have no idea.

And paper? I like paper, on it is printed the research of great historians. But I cannot look at a Bugatti and confirm or disprove a single word of Conway, Woods, Laugier or Borgeson.

And then we have a new owner of a Bugatti, and one of the movement's elder statesmen phones him and tell him his car is a fake. So my mind is just sort of meandering, no thought, no reason, just experiencing, feeling.

Thanks onebugatti. Your words give me pause, but one thing I can tell you ; when it comes to people, I prefer books and dogs.

Regards
Johan

We can all agree, a good dog is better than a bad Bugatti.....

But why is it not shown in Wiki that this contraption is a REPLICA???
(Sorry for repeating myself in making clear that in my opinion this car can not be considered a proper Bugatti and because of that should not qualify for a BC number.)
Bugwrench

This car really bothers the heck out of you doesn't it Bugwrench? Note, I am not referring to it as a Bugatti either, just to show I am not without empathy for the strength of your conviction. I still think it a thing of beauty, but you are right, it is not a Bugatti. And with the steering wheel on the left, I humbly submit, no-one will ever mistake for a real one either.

Just as a matter of curiosity, what is it about this particular car that bothers you so much? I like it simply because it is so defiantly non-original. Mr. Kellog had a car designed and built to fulfil his dream of an ideal fantasy Bugatti. This absence of malice allows the car to be judged for what it is, a modern interpretation of past romance.

Kind of refreshing really.

Johan

PS. I do agree with you on the BC number, totally unnecessary.

OK Johan, so you agree that just fulfilling your dream and building a fantasy car (even it is has a nice shape!) does not automatically entitle you to declare the car to be a Bugatti and succesfully apply for a BC number.
We do agree then in the end.
Bugwrench

I can just hear the voice of the "modern day Lord" offering to take your mistaken purchase off your hands.

What a kind gentleman !

Discussion on such a car is a total waste of time. We should all agree, this is nonsense. Should we discuss all the replicas on EBay? I think not.

This car is a personal fantasy, much like an inflatable plastic woman - It is in such poor taste that is should be kept a secret. I feel embarrassed seeing it.

I would be ashamed to show such a hot rod at a Bugatti event. It doesn't bother me so much, just it is not historically creditable, not important, somewhat on the side of bad taste.

The guy could have kept it the spirit of Ettore, yet choose something from the Addams Family. It is a Lurch of a car. Is his exwife's name Morticia Addams ?

I changed the WIKI entry somewhat to reflect the opinion of most people here (and also mine...)

http://www.bugattibuilder.com/wiki/index.php?title=BC_128

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Vive la Marque !!

I don't understand the benefits of the piano wire wheels, I know the way they were assembled but what were the advantages over T35 alloy wheels?
I've read that all pilots were complaining about the twitch caused by the play between the wheel pieces.

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Authentic Ladies