T59 production

bugfan · **Joined:** Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:19 am **Posts:** 32

Could you tell me how many T59 were built (at the factory) ? Thanks

Johan Buchner · **Posted:** Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:11 am

Don't anyone dare answer this question; it is now 11H05 here in South Africa, I will be home at 17H00 and the T59 is a particular obsession of mine.

Bugfan I presume you would also like info on the racing cars fitted with the T50B engine? Single seaters only, or the sports-racers as well? Ah to Hell with it, I'm giving you everything: I tell you, tonight my Conway's shall squeal!

Thanks Bugfan, I owe you.

Johan

bugfan · **Joined:** Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:19 am **Posts:** 32

Thanks Johan,

I am not obsessed by the T59 and I don't know much about them.
I didn't find the lost T59 either.
But yesterday, I was going through some of my archives and I stopped on a letter from Marco where he was refering to the T59 production.
So I am posting this topic to know if the modern Bugatti historians are in accordance with what could have been written in the mid '50 about the T59 production.
And I am glad to share with T59 fanatics this letter that nobody saw for the past decades.
So Johan, how many ? (in term of chassis built)

Johan Buchner · **Posted:** Wed Aug 27, 2008 12:32 pm

Now we're cooking! Bugatti sold just 4 T59 Chassis numbers, 59121/22/23/24 to 4 British enthusiasts. But as to how many T59's were built, it depends how you look at it. At least 3 of the modern replicas were built on original, unused chassis frames. (I've read that they planned an initial run of 10) The two single seaters, 3l Cork GP car and 4.7l Shelsley Walsh car (now Mulhouse) are both, as far as I am aware, built on T59 frames, and at least one of them is a development of the Wimile car kept by the factory after the other 4 were sold off. I'm speaking under correction here, but I think the most T59's ever photographed together is 5.

However, I am not familiar with the Marco letter, perhaps after I've posted an expanded and verified version of the above, you can provide a copy of its contents. It will be fascinating to see what's different with today's accepted facts. As this forum has proved over and over again, there is much that remains open to interpretation. Incidentally, Matthews suggest that Marco was guilty of skimming money from the factory. Any truth to this, or simply a malicious rumour?

Till later then.
Johan

Johan Buchner · **Posted:** Wed Aug 27, 2008 12:47 pm

PS. I forgot, then there is also the King Leopold T59, 57248. Come to think about it, I have no idea whether this was converted from one of the factory racers. Not the only T59 to carry a T57 chassis number, and I believe some T59's used T54 chassis numbers up to the time they were sold. 13H45 now, soon, real soon.

Johan Buchner · **Posted:** Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:44 pm

The exact answer is : 5 T59's, fitted with 3.3l (initially 2.8l) dry sumped, T57 based engines, were built by the factory. As follows :

59121 / engine no.3 delivered to C.E.Martin 04/1935
59122 / engine no.1 delivered to Lindsay Eccles 03/1935
59123 / engine no.7 delivered to Lord Howe 04/1935 (initially chassis no.54208)
59124 / engine no.4 delivered to Brian Lewis 04/1935 (initially chassis no.54213)
57248 / engine no.5 Was kept by the factory for use by Wimille, until rebuilt as road car for Prince Leopold. Delivery date unknown.

A further 5 cars were built on T59 frames. Details as follows :

50180 / engine type : 50B I ; 4.7l Monoposto ; raced at Shelsley Walsh in '39 ; now in Mulhouse.

441352 (this chassis number makes no sense to me) / engine type 50B III ; 3l Monoposto ; the 'Cork' car. A surviving car whose originality, or lack thereof, is still a subject for much debate. I have it on good authority that the rumour that it now has a wooden crankshaft fitted was spread by the car's restorer, Ray Jones, to further irritate the A.B.C & B.O.C. As to the rest of the car, I do not know.

The two seater sports-car, now in Mulhouse, has neither chassis nor engine number, or at least, Conway doesn't quote any. The Schlumf brothers fitted the set of twin rear wheels as fitted to 50180 for Shelsley Walsh to this car. It looks ugly.

Then there is the saga of the 2 T57S 45 sports racers built on T59 frames for the A.C.F G.P. of 1937, they practiced briefly, and then promptly disappeared. But that is another story altogether.

To recap : 5 T59's were built, and a further 5 cars were built on T59 frames. And at least 3 of the replicas are claimed to have been built on original ex-factory frames.

Now, what did Marco say in his letter?

Hope this helps.

Johan

bugfan · **Joined:** Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:19 am **Posts:** 32

He said they built 7 T59.

GCL-Wales · **Joined:** Thu Jun 26, 2008 5:17 pm **Posts:** 348

In Johan's posting above delete Shelsley Walsh and substitute Prescott.

Johan Buchner · **Posted:** Wed Aug 27, 2008 6:07 pm

If you think about it, he's got a point. The 5 + the 2 monopostos were all G.P. racers, the rest were sports cars. Perhaps only 7 were known at the factory as pukka T59's. And Pierre Marco worked at the Molsheim factory his entire life, if he says 7, well perhaps then the correct answer is 7.

Can anyone share some further insight and/or comment? Does a T59 frame a T59 make?

Johan Buchner · **Posted:** Wed Aug 27, 2008 6:15 pm

Oh crap yes. Prescott, of course! Sincere thanks to the Gentleman from Wales, and apologies to all.

Hunter · **Joined:** Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:51 pm **Posts:** 119

Say after me please : Schlumpf not Schlumf.

This is at least the second time you've been reminded, Johan.

Johan Buchner · **Posted:** Wed Aug 27, 2008 8:38 pm

Humour is tricky, isn't it?

bugatti69 · **Posted:** Thu Aug 28, 2008 12:15 am

Hunter · **Joined:** Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:51 pm **Posts:** 119

I think confusion has been generated by the Bugatti Trust and UK BOC.
The former includes the 1937 ACF "Tanks" in its photo-gallery under the type 59 heading whereas the BOC lists those cars as separate models i.e. "57S45 - 4.5 litre unsupercharged .. sports/racing car. Two were produced".

Some of the problems over type designations and chassis numbers in the late thirties were attributable to the fact that the bankers were effectively running the Molsheim plant and were trying to put a damper on Ettore and Jean's tendency to constantly produce new cars and engines.

Aravis · **Posted:** Thu Aug 28, 2008 7:17 am

- What's the Marco's letter ?
- T59/50B G.P. du Comminges, Collection Schlumpf : See Bugatti Magnum p. 357
GP du Luxembourg (1st) : See Jarraud p. 205.

T59 production

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