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T51 chassis 51146 x 2 ; chassis 51148 x 1
http://www.bugattibuilder.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=775		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Johan Buchner [ Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:09 pm ]
Post subject:  T51 chassis 51146 x 2 ; chassis 51148 x 1
This is quite interesting, the Conway entries for 51148 are broadly in agreement with that of the Wiki. Magnum (1989) list this car as being in the UK. (I assume then owned by David Black) In Grand Prix (2004) its current location is given as the USA (presumably owned by William Vaccaro).

But there is a note attached to this chassis number in Grand Prix and I quote : "There are two cars marked with the number 51146, known to have been restamped pre-war. One is undoubtedly 51148."

They both seem to be completely original cars, although there is a more comprehensive pre-war history for 51146. I include the full Wiki entries for both.

I would love to know the following :

How did two cars get stamped (by the factory?) with the same number?
How was the mystery solved? (I hope to learn more of the practical side of researching Bugattis. I believe that certain forensic tests can be performed to reveal over-stamped numbers. Is this true, and how is it done?)
Are there still aspects of either of these cars' histories in dispute?

Chassis 51146 as per Wiki

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Engine n° : 29

Year : 1929

Licence plate: 3273 NV1 (F), NPC 244(GB)

Owner : Terry Cardy (UK)

Former owners: Louis Chiron (F); Lemon Burton; Bear (UK); Tyrer; E. Dean Butler (UK)

Type 51 Grand Prix,


Meetings:

- #22 Grand Prix de Monaco 1931, Louis Chiron, 1er

- #32 Grand Prix A.C.F. 1931, Louis Chiron / Achille Varzi, 1er

- Monaco 1997,

- Grand Prix historique, Monaco 2000,

- Retromobile, Paris 2006,

- Prescott 2006,

- VSCC Prescott Hill Climb 2007,

- La Vie en Bleu 24-25th May 2008,


Chassis 51148 as per Wiki

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Engine N°: 25

Year: 1934

Licence plate: JLG 14 (GB)

Owner: since 1968 David Black,

Former owners: T.A.S.O. Mathieson, William Vaccaro,

Type 51 Grand Prix


Races and meetings:

- #734 VSCCA at Virginia International Raceway 5th May 2001

- Monterey Historic Races 2003, William Vaccaro

- Pebble Beach Concours d'Elegance 2003,

Thanks
Johan
Author:  bugatti69 [ Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:27 pm ]
Post subject: 
Bonnes questions.
En espérant bonnes réponses pour mise à jour des informations sur wiki.
Cela permettra de préciser, et wiki sera plus crédible !

Good questions.
By hoping for good answers for update of information on wiki.
That will make it possible to specify, and wiki will be more credible!
Author:  Johan Buchner [ Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:54 pm ]
Post subject: 
I hope so too Bugatti69. Have you seen Bugfan's reply to 51144? Sometimes it is the things not said which explains everything. It certainly speaks volumes for the general accuracy of Wiki that we are now in the lucky position to be able to discuss individual chassis' minutiae, comfortable in the knowledge that hard-working contributors, yourself very much included, will edit, and continue to edit, as and when new information becomes available.

Hopefully Michael and Bugfan will take the list of T35's mentioned in one of their earlier debates and deal with them each as individual threads. The sheer amount of T35's have always made the study of them a daunting task for me, but if you break them up into the different versions (T ; C ; B ; leave the A's to one side for the moment) it becomes manageable.

Perhaps the Wiki list for the T35 can be amended into these sub-categories some time in the future? Will be a lot of work though.

Johan
Author:  Herman [ Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:53 pm ]
Post subject: 
Problem with that is that many cars have changed type (35-->35B, A to B, C to B, etc.)

Forensicly, a ground away number can be reveiled by etching the metal with special liquids. The rest of the car should be protected. After an hour or so working the metal with acids, an impression can be found where the original number was.

My father in law is CSI-er. Actually there is a thread on a type 57 (645 I believe) which has a ground engine number. It was discussed then.
Author:  bugatti69 [ Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:54 pm ]
Post subject: 
3273 NV1 allotted to 51146 or 51121 for #32 Grand Prix of l' A.C.F Monthléry (F), June 21,1931, Louis Chiron and Achille Varzi (I), 1st ?

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Author:  bugfan [ Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:55 pm ]
Post subject: 
I have a little informations on those two cars, but I want to see first what you have and what's your conclusions.

What I can put together tonight, is at least the owners of the cars, Wiki is a little short, and it is in most of the good books.

So for 51146 :

Chiron (Feb 33), Jack Lemon Burton, K.W. Bear, G. Tyrer, J.S. Fry, Frank Wall, C.S. Henderson, Jack Richards, Heimann,......

For 51148 :

T.A.S.O. Mathieson, L. Blackburn, Heib (Jan '55), David Black,........

More later, if this topic stays alive .
Author:  Michael Müller [ Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:44 pm ]
Post subject: 
#51121 was the Earl Howe car. Sold to him already before Montlhery 1931.
Author:  GCL-Wales [ Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Registration numbers.
The factory seems to have had a block of registrations at its disposal from 3273 NV1 to 3276 NV1. They appear on various works entries between 1931 and 1933.
Author:  bugfan [ Sat Aug 30, 2008 8:54 am ]
Post subject: 
The factory was problably using the registration as temporary plate, or like dealer plate, that was easier.
Now if historians want to identify the cars with the registration painted on the side of the tail or the front of the radiator, we will have a few mistake.
By example, a car winning Monaco 1931 when all the evidences (engine number, gearbox number, rear axle number, frame number, chassis number, factory datas,....) indicate that the car was not even built at that time.
Author:  Williamswinner [ Sat Aug 30, 2008 9:29 am ]
Post subject:  Registrations "numbers"
In the twenties, the factory used "trade plate" registrations ending in WW5.

Permanent factory registrations ended in J, J1 etc. and later NV1 etc.

Can any of our French members advise us on how this system worked ?
Author:  GCL-Wales [ Sat Aug 30, 2008 9:53 am ]
Post subject:  A LIST of TYPE 51s in the UK in the EARLY POST-WW2 ERA.
I was lent a copy of some videos produced by a local motorcycle club called the Wirral 100 club and asked to identify some Bugattis which appeared on them competing at a sprint course near Mold in North Wales.

I made some notes to help me identify the cars. Here they are for what they're worth !

Type 51s entered or used in UK competition 1938 – 1951


Crozier 51A 1492s Prescott July 1939 53.07 secs.
Fry, D.H.C. 51 2296s Prescott July, 1946 51.90 secs.
Bear 51A 1492s Prescott May 1948
Chortlon 51A 1498s Prescott May 1948
Prosser 51B 1955s Prescott May 1948 - June 1948
Tyrer 51 51146 Prescott May 1948 - Sep. 1948
Whincop 51 51140 Prescott May 1948 - June 1949
Monkhouse 51 51155 Prescott June 1948
Blackburn 51 51146 Prescott June 1948 - May 1950
Fry, Joe G. 51 51146 Prescott May 1949 - May 1950 (died 29/7/50).
Wilkins 51 51153 Prescott June 1950
Henderson, C. 51 51146 Prescott June 1951
Lloyd, T.E. 51 51130 Prescott June 1951
Smith, J. 51 51130 Prescott June 1951
Smith S.J. 51A Prescott Sep. 1951

Owners in late forties and early fifties

Lemon Burton 51 51130 Dec. 36 – May 1946
(Darbishire 51 51130)
Fry 51 51130 May, 1946
Smith, B. 51 51130
Smith, J.D. 51 51130 1951
Lloyd, T.E. 51 51130

Lloyd 51A (51138) 1954
Prosser 51C 51138
Beebee 51C 51138

Whincop 51 51140 1940-7 OMP 7
Whincop 51 51140 1947-9 OMP 7
Bear 51 51140 1949-52 OMP 7
Robins 51 51140 1952- OMP 7 Stourbridge

Blackburn 51146 41 ? 48-50 ?? Heswall In TBB(3)
Fry, J.S. 51146 Sep. 50 Surrey
Henderson 51146 Staffordshire

Arnold 51153
Wilkins 51153
Pratt 51153 Huntington

Monkhouse 51155 1943- Crashed in 1947
Charles 51155 Fitted Ford engine + plating
Ayrton 51155 Fitted lightweight body

Bear 51156 JBH 529
Smith, S.J. 51156 1954 Sussex


Jenkinson 1954 Doncaster
Longmore ? Walsall
Kidston ? Dorset

Brackets indicate uncertainty.

Question for Herman. Would it be better to have the post subject in much larger letters ?
Author:  bugatti69 [ Sat Aug 30, 2008 1:07 pm ]
Post subject: 
GCL-Wales says that JBH 529 is 51156:

JBH 529 allotted to 51156 or 51155 ?

To see: http://www.bugattibuilder.com/wiki/inde ... itle=51155
Author:  bugfan [ Sat Aug 30, 2008 1:29 pm ]
Post subject: 
bugatti69 wrote:
GCL-Wales says that JBH 529 is 51156:

JBH 529 allotted to 51156 or 51155 ?

To see: http://www.bugattibuilder.com/wiki/inde ... itle=51155


Wiki is all wrong a 51156 and 51155, then the confusion.

Kenneth Bear's T51 ( ex- L. Eccles) is 51156, registered JBH 529
Author:  bugatti69 [ Sat Aug 30, 2008 2:32 pm ]
Post subject: 
on: Eaglesfield it is different

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Author:  Johan Buchner [ Sat Aug 30, 2008 5:57 pm ]
Post subject: 
About 51155 I have the following :

51155 ; engine 34 ; no delivery date given ; first owner H.R.H King of the Belgians ; (later B.O.C. car) ; 2004 in England (then the following notation : "Date may be 1932 as Bouriat was killed in May 1933, possibly in this car.")
The above is from G.P. 2004 - Magnum contains even less.

For 51156 I have the following :

51156 ; engine 23* ; delivery date Aug. 1934 ; first owner L. Eccles (through Sorel, London) ; 2004 in UK.
* Both Wiki and Magnum gives the present engine as 31, ex-Brivio. Engine 31 was originally fitted to 51157 whose first owner is given as Villeneuve, Paris, delivered to him Mar. 1935. 51157 is not listed among the surviving cars.

You know that stabbing headache you get when you eat ice-cream too quickly? Got one, right now. Thank you Gentlemen, much appreciated.

Johan
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