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Inbetween moderns: Post-war cars based on Bugatti Technology
http://www.bugattibuilder.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=34		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  J.J.Horst [ Thu Jan 19, 2006 1:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Inbetween moderns: Post-war cars based on Bugatti Technology
Take a look at:
http://forums.atlasf1.com/showthread.php?s=19bfea3ae5ad50f014abf3bcb5031667&postid=1976905

The CDL "Chorlton special"

It seems interesting to me, to gather info on all cars that used Bugatti Technology to start a new car, or a new marque even (The first Allard used a Bugatti body)

More to follow
Author:  J.J.Horst [ Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:03 pm ]
Post subject: 
Just to show what kind of car I'm talking about in the above post, the Chorlton Special, the following pictures:

Image

Image

CDL means Centaur Developments Ltd, a little firm based in London at the end of 1948, beginning of 1949. with three chaps named James Boothby, the disigner Michael Chorlton and Charles Brookes. The purpose was to built Formula B models and a Formula A (one) car. All I know is that only the F1 was built: in fact it was the Bugatti 51A (1500-8 cyl) that Chorlton raced in 1947-48
(#51126). In 1947 the car was entered by F.O. Cleveland-Harmer. In 1949 the car appeared at least at Jersey and the International Trophy. It was modified in monoplace form.

The T51 chassis is easily seen in the picture below.



Image
Author:  J.J.Horst [ Fri Jan 20, 2006 1:18 pm ]
Post subject: 
Another one, found on:
http://8w.forix.com/df2-veri.html

Veritas Monoposto

#1 1948 ? debut 1948 Eggberg with Bugatti engine
sold 1949 to Orley ("Orley Speciale"); BMW engine?
retained until 1953 or later

(no pictures)
Author:  J.J.Horst [ Fri Jan 20, 2006 1:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Veritas - Brütsch
Here is a list of the cars, which were still available in Germany at the beginning of 1948:

Alfa Romeo Monza (1932), 2.3 l (3.0 l ?) s/c straight-8, ex-Pietsch?, owner: Egon Brütsch
Alfa Romeo Monza, 2.3 l s/c straight-8, owner: Hellmuth Deutz
Maserati 26M (1932), 2.5 l s/c straight-8, owner: Kurt Kiefer
Maserati 4CM (1938), 1.5 l s/c straight-4, ex-Pietsch?, owner: Leonhard Joa
Bugatti 35C/51 (192x), 2.3 l s/c straight-8, owner: Heinrich Herbster
Bugatti 39 (1929), 1.5 l s/c straight-4, ex-Steinweg?, owner: Fritz Gerster

It seems that none of these cars survived that season very long. For example the engine of Herbster's Bugatti was already transferred to the very first Veritas Monoposto at the Eggberg race before being installed into Brütsch's second single-seater in 1949.

During 1949 Richard Küchen, a former chief constructor of the Zündapp motorcycle factory, had begun with the design of a completely new 2-litre V8 engine. It seems that this was originally intended for Brütsch's second car to replace the Bugatti engine, but in the meantime Brütsch had completely lost his interest in racing and concentrated on building up a production series of small cars.

Image
Is this picture a fake? Somehow it looks as if the shape of Brütsch's EBS II-Bugatti, claimed to be taken at the Schauinsland hillclimb, has been manipulated by some sort of a cut-and-paste operation.

Conclusion, the engine from Herbster's T35C or T51 was built into the Veritas first, consequently went to the "Brütsch special" as I can only call it. I don't know where the engine ended up!


All info from http://8w.forix.com/df2-hpb.html and other pages from the same site
Author:  J.J.Horst [ Fri Jan 20, 2006 1:54 pm ]
Post subject: 
Some searching gives the following list of hillclimb winners, from 1937 to 1949:

1937, Jul 11 Taubensuhl (Landau, Palatine), (6.5 km) D Joa, Leonhard (FTD) Bugatti 4m26.2s R
1938, Jun 12 Ojców Climb (Kraków), 3rd (3.500 km) PL Sojka, Bruno Bugatti 2m48.8s R
1939, Jun ? Ojców Climb (Kraków), 4th (3.500 km) PL Navratil, Bugatti 2m55.6s R
1937, Jun 27 Puymoyen (Angoulême), (2.000 km) F Delorme, Jean Bugatti 1.5-liter 1m06.2s R
1949, Aug 27 Prescott (Cheltenham), (Vintage SCC) (880 yd) GB Stubberfield, Peter Bugatti 2.3 (1927) 48.64s R?
1937, Jul ? Sudeten (Ober-Schreiberhau), 9th (4.300 km) D Brudes, Adolf Bugatti 2.3-liter ? S
1946, Aug 31 Craigantlet (Belfast), (1,883 yd) GB Bear, Ken Bugatti 2.9-liter spl. 1m25.6s R
1938, Sep 25 Lapize (Montlhéry), (? km) F Balsa, Marcel Bugatti 3.0-liter, T50B? 32.8s ?
1947, May 17 Bo'ness (Scotland), (880 yards) GB Abecassis, George Bugatti 3.3-liter 38.2s R
1937, Feb 1 Rob Roy (Vic), (? mi) AUS Day, J. Bugatti Ford V8 37.3s R
1937, Mar 29 Rob Roy (Vic), (? mi) AUS Day, J. Bugatti Ford V8 35.42s R
1945, May 13 Wakehurst Parkway Hillclimb (NSW), (440 yd ?) AUS Laing, H. Bugatti Ford V8 ? R
1947, Jun 22 Sarthe (Huy, west of Liege) 1st B Vingerhoets, Pierre Bugatti T35B 127.112 km/h ?
1937, Jun 20 Ojców Climb (Kraków), 2nd (3.500 km) PL Sojka, Bruno Bugatti T37A 2m52.3s R
1937, Jun 20 Wartberg (Heilbronn) D Brütsch, Egon Bugatti T51 2m03.4s R
1937, Jun 27 Pforzheim Climb (Pforzheim), 5th (3.500 km) D Brütsch, Egon Bugatti T51 2m10.1s R
1937, Nov 7 Cabo da Roca (Sintra), 4th (5.000 km) P Ferreira, Francisco Ribeiro Bugatti T51 81.008 km/h R
1938, May 15 Prescott (Cheltenham) 1st "Closed", (880 yd) GB Baron, Arthur Bugatti T51 50.70s R
1937, Sep 9 Ecce-Homo (Sternberg), 13th (? km ) CS Schmidt, Florian Bugatti T51A 5m14.7s R
1938, Aug 14 Wachenburg (Weinheim), 4th (2.600 km) D Joa, Leonard Bugatti T51A none R
1938, Oct 9 Dreifaltigkeitsberg (Spaichingen), 5th (4.200 km) D Joa, Leonard Bugatti T51A 3m23.1s R
1939, Jun ? Prescott (Cheltenham) 2nd "Closed", (880 yd) GB Baron, Arthur Bugatti T59 48.71s R
1947, Jul 12 Leeuwkop (nr. Johannesburg, Transvaal) ZA Kelfkens, Pierre Bugatti T59 47.0s R
1947, Nov 29 Camps Bay (Cape) ZA Kelfkens, Pierre Bugatti T59 53.4s R
1946, ? Kaffirskraal ZA Kelfkens, Pierre Bugatti T59, (ex-Howe) 54.4s R
1947, Jun 1 Cetara-Capo d'Orso, 2nd (4.500 km) I Fiordelisi, Pietro Bugatti-Alfa Romeo 4m44.2s S
1946, Sep ? Cape Schank (Vic), (? mi) AUS Davey-Milne, Earl Bugatti-Hudson T37 ? R?
1948, Oct ? Saddle Road (Palmerston North), (? mi) NZ Proctor, Morrie Bugatti-Riley 1m00.0s R


See especially the Bugatti Alfa Romeo, Bugatti Hudson T37 and the Bugatti Riley! Still something to search for!
Author:  Herman [ Fri Jan 20, 2006 2:27 pm ]
Post subject: 
I try and understand the above infromation, but I do not get it quite right, I think:


1937, Feb 1 Rob Roy (Vic), (? mi) AUS Day, J. Bugatti Ford V8 37.3s R

1937, Feb 1, OK, that is clear.
Rob Roy (Vic) Driver?
(? mi) number of miles. (quite a lot of long races in the table, should that be meters in some cases?)
AUS Australian equipe.
Day, J (co driver?)
Bugatti Ford V8 37.3s R

This last one is interesting. Bugatti;s with Ford V8's installed?
37.3 seconds
R or S (right hand drive?)
Author:  J.J.Horst [ Fri Jan 20, 2006 2:53 pm ]
Post subject: 
Sorry, I just copy / pasted it!

The entire overview is on Leif Snellman's site:
http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/hcw6.htm

The order is: Date Event Driver Car Time C(lass)

Class is Race or Sports, I guess. The distance usually is from 1 - 3 km.

The Bugatti Ford should be relatively well known, I'll see if I can find more info on it. In this Topic I wanted to show post-war specials (Therefore I put it in "Modern Bugattis'). Of course there were sufficient pre-war specials also!
Author:  Herman [ Fri Jan 20, 2006 3:57 pm ]
Post subject: 
Ah, at least now I see it.

I looked at a couple of lines, which were not the most clear ones.
Author:  Michael Müller [ Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Veritas - Brütsch
J.J.Horst wrote:
Conclusion, the engine from Herbster's T35C or T51 was built into the Veritas first, consequently went to the "Brütsch special" as I can only call it. I don't know where the engine ended up!

Sorry for bringing this old topic up again.

A lot of prewar Bugattis survived the war in Germany, and a rather large portion of them could be found in the southwestern part of the country. For the first ever postwar race in Germany - the Ruhestein hillclimb in 1946 - of the 20 cars entered the half had been Bugattis (although not all appeared). May be the reason was that Fritz Gerster had his garage in that area, and although I do not know much about him it seems that he was a Bugatti specialist.

Egon Brütsch bought the ex-von Morgen T51 (#51139) already in the 30's, whether directly after HJ's fatal crash at the Nürburgring in 1932 or later I do not know. He entered this car also for the 1946 Ruhestein hillclimb, but it's unclear whether he really was present. In 1949 Brütsch put the Bugatti engine into his 2nd EBS Special, see photo above which is absolutely original and neither a fake nor retouched. What happened to the remains of #51139 is unclear, but most probably they had been scrapped.

Heinrich Herbster from Lörrach already 1938/39 bought the T35B #4948, also an ex-von Morgen car (later Paul Pietsch, then Herbert Wimmer). He for sure was present at the Ruhestein, proven by photos. In 1948 he ordered a new Veritas singleseater, but as no engine was available (the early Veritas used prewar 2nd hand BMW 328 engines) he ordered to put preliminary the Bugatti engine (and transmission) into it. With this car he was present at the the 1948 Eggberg hillclimb. It is doubtful whether the engine found its way back to #4948. There are signs that Hans Gerbel, also from Lörrach, used the the frame and (parts of) the body and built a special with BMW engine and front axle.
The car today known as #4948 has only limited original parts, described here:
http://www.rmauctions.com/CarDetails.cf ... &Currency=
The original parts listed would fit to those NOT used by Gerbel for his special.
Author:  Herman [ Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:00 pm ]
Post subject: 
Great info, very useful.

I think Christian will be able to put everything in the WIKI, for future reference.
Author:  bugatti69 [ Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:52 pm ]
Post subject: 
You give all of interesting information.

But not knowing the English speech, I have many difficulties to understand exactly what you say. (the translations by Internet are not precise)

Could not you bring the summary of these precise details on WIKI for the frames concerned: # 51126, # 51139, #4948 and also for other Bugatti (Post-war bus based one Bugatti Technology) which can be added.

http://www.bugattibuilder.com/wiki/inde ... itle=51126
http://www.bugattibuilder.com/wiki/index.php?title=4948

You can to also communicate me by private message these summaries. I will do then what is necessary to supplement information on WIKI.

Christian (bugatti69)
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