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 Post subject: who were the replica/recreation specialists?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 6:51 pm 
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I've been around the Bugatti community for awhile and fortunately have been lucky in dealing with mostly fairly original cars.

Over the years I've heard C&G, Hoskins, Brineton, Peel, etc -- all as offering chassis, bodywork, engines and other components. I'm sure there are numerous others over the past 60 years. And even today Pursang, etc building complete replicas / recreations.

Question: Who are the numerous replica/recreation specialists over the past 60 years and what did they build (parts/cars) and does anyone have any idea in regard to the numbers of units sold? (ie: someone made a chassis and made ten copies, etc)

note: I'm not talking about a restoration shop building/repairing a single example body for a Bugatti restoration project. That happens on a regular basis! But if they built multiple bodies for "resale" to others, then its worth covering in this thead.

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 Post subject: Re: who were the replica/recreation specialists?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 2:55 pm 
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I spoke to Fred at Peels of Kingston,years ago,and asked him why he had never made a proper wooden body buck for the GP bodies.He told me that they had never realised that they would be making over 500 GP bodies so had never bothered !


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 Post subject: Re: who were the replica/recreation specialists?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:26 pm 
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"New" so-called Bugattis are being produced on a very large scale especially in the Argentine and in France.

In La rage de l'automobile (2009) the proprietor of Ventoux Moteurs, Carpentras states that since 1989 his company has made over 250 new engines.

I'm told that our South American friends are well into three figures and they have over seventy orders for their "Bescia Course type 13" which has just gone into production. See video link elswhere on the forum for some film of an open-day at their "production line". I don't know whether the VSCC will allow them to run in the UK but they seem to have torn up their rule books. There are several "Bugattis" running in their events which don't have the required three out of five original major components.

More than ten firms have recreated "Baby" Bugattis. Total production now exceeds the number made at Molsheim.

I analysed the entry on a "Bugatti" event in Europe last year . Around forty cars, but only seventeen or eighteen of them had original chassis and only six had a full set of original major components. About ten of the entries had absolutely no original components in them.


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 Post subject: Re: who were the replica/recreation specialists?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:39 am 
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1989/2009 is 20 years.250 engines over 20 years is 12.5 engines per year.One per month....I dont think so.


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 Post subject: LAURENT RONDONI
PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:38 pm 
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"...depuis la création de VMI, en mars 1989, les lieux ont vu naitre 250 moteurs au bas mot." Raymond Couraud reporting on a visit to Rondoni's premises where he interviewed and photographed Laurent and his workers. There are at least fourteen cylinder blocks on the bench in one picture.

Surely, most people running small businesses have a tendency to round downwards their production figures to minimise tax liability.


Last edited by GCL-Wales on Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: LAURENT RONDONI
PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:29 pm 
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GCL-Wales wrote:
"...depuis la création de VMI, en mars 1989, les lieux on vu naitre 250 moteurs au bas mot." Raymond Couraud reporting on a visit to Rondonis premises where he interviewed and photographed Laurent and his workers. There are at least fourteen cylinder blocks on the bench in one picture.

Surely, most people running small businesses have a tendency to round downwards their production figures to minimise tax liability.

Laurent Rondoni is a friend......


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 Post subject: Re: who were the replica/recreation specialists?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:16 am 
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Would your friendship with Laurent Rondoni allow you to ask him why he is so certain that Frank Trepsat's type 35 is based on the Lord Cholmondeley car ?


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 Post subject: Re: who were the replica/recreation specialists?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:37 pm 
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GCL-Wales wrote:
Would your friendship with Laurent Rondoni allow you to ask him why he is so certain that Frank Trepsat's type 35 is based on the Lord Cholmondeley car ?

Frank has invited me to laurent's workshop to see the car where it is being serviced.It seems to be a nice car and I cannot think of one good reason to drive 800 odd KMs to confirm that.I do not share your strange concerns for other peoples property.


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 Post subject: Re: who were the replica/recreation specialists?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:23 pm 
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People buying Bugattis rely on the pronouncements of "experts". Some of these experts are people of integrity. Others not.

The car currently owned by Frank was listed on the Bugatti Register as the Cholmondeley car on the basis of the validation of the car provided by Laurent and made public on this forum.

As the identification of the chassis is the key to establishing the provenance of a car, experts should be prepared to disclose their methodology. It's no good just saying "I'm the expert, trust me". That was Tony Blair's little trick and look what a mess that got us into.

Every time a previously unknown "Bugatti" appears its provenance should be carefully checked before the claims made for it are published on the Register.

It's now about 80 years since the last 35B was made and very unlikely that many original cars lie undiscovered. And yet "new" cars keep on appearing on the Register with dates of manufacture given as 1928 or whatever.

The wiki concept will only work if participants are acting in good faith. Some aren't.

What do other members think ?


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 Post subject: Re: who were the replica/recreation specialists?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:59 pm 
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GCL-Wales wrote:
People buying Bugattis rely on the pronouncements of "experts". Some of these experts are people of integrity. Others not.

The car currently owned by Frank was listed on the Bugatti Register as the Cholmondeley car on the basis of the validation of the car provided by Laurent and made public on this forum.

As the identification of the chassis is the key to establishing the provenance of a car, experts should be prepared to disclose their methodology. It's no good just saying "I'm the expert, trust me". That was Tony Blair's little trick and look what a mess that got us into.

Every time a previously unknown "Bugatti" appears its provenance should be carefully checked before the claims made for it are published on the Register.

It's now about 80 years since the last 35B was made and very unlikely that many original cars lie undiscovered. And yet "new" cars keep on appearing on the Register with dates of manufacture given as 1928 or whatever.

The wiki concept will only work if participants are acting in good faith. Some aren't.

What do other members think ?

I am pleased to see that we agree on this point.As this car is not being offered for sale the owner is not obliged to satisfy our curiosity does he?


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 Post subject: Re: who were the replica/recreation specialists?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 6:28 pm 
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[thread drift]
Let's keep the "supposed" Cholmondeley car (authentication) out of this thread and leave the arguements in the other thread(s) where it is posted. Nothing gained.

But if someone has pictures and can authenticate the non-original parts -- it is worth discussing how they were identified as being replica/recreation.
[end thread drift]

500 Gran Prix bodies? 250 engines? Whom has created a large number or replica frames as well?

Also is there any "known" identification to identify a Peel body or one of the supposed 250 receated engines?

Point of this thread was to identify whom the folks are making the replica/recreation parts. And thus the handful of "Bugatti experts" can hopefully pass down the identifying characteristics / features to "Bugatti enthusiasts" to help identify.

And let's be 100% honest, even the "Bugatti experts" aren't knowledgeable about ALL the replica/recreation parts floating around out there and how to identify specifically.

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 Post subject: Re: who were the replica/recreation specialists?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 8:18 pm 
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superleggera wrote:
[thread drift]
Let's keep the "supposed" Cholmondeley car (authentication) out of this thread and leave the arguements in the other thread(s) where it is posted. Nothing gained.

But if someone has pictures and can authenticate the non-original parts -- it is worth discussing how they were identified as being replica/recreation.
[end thread drift]

500 Gran Prix bodies? 250 engines? Whom has created a large number or replica frames as well?

Also is there any "known" identification to identify a Peel body or one of the supposed 250 receated engines?

Point of this thread was to identify whom the folks are making the replica/recreation parts. And thus the handful of "Bugatti experts" can hopefully pass down the identifying characteristics / features to "Bugatti enthusiasts" to help identify.

And let's be 100% honest, even the "Bugatti experts" aren't knowledgeable about ALL the replica/recreation parts floating around out there and how to identify specifically.

Peel bodies are fairly easy to identify,or rather I should say that original 80 year old bodies are fairly easy to identify.The welding on the bonnet because Fred at Peels did not have a louvering tool wide enough to get over the width of the bonnet! Club parts have always been easy to spot because HG conway liked to make bits deliberately different so that he at least could spot them.The rear of the club GP gearbox case is one obvious example of this. Most of the time it is a case of instinct,and feel.I do not accept the 250 engines story.I would also be pleased to see the list of replica frames.The 500 peel bodies were in a lot of cases for original cars.


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 Post subject: Manufacturers of replacement "Bugatti-style" frames.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:16 pm 
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Here are some of my notes about people who have manufactured new chassis frames.

ANADON, Jorge. The Argentinian manufacturer of “replica” GP Bugattis and a wide range of other fascinating and imaginative automotive products. He is based in Parana, Entrerios, Argentina. His products have generated considerable criticism from some members of the European Bugatti establishment including John Howell in Spring 1997 : “Modern CNC machines and digital readouts can turn out a mould from the original drawings which is perfect, unlike some of the full size components from further south in the Americas…..” (On the Pursang website (http://www.pursangweb.com) his name is given as Leonidas).

FEIERABEND, Helmut. A German engineer involved in the manufacture of Bugatti components. One of his frames was used by H. Klopper in a replica type 37 which was given the UK BOC chassis no. BC 010. He is also said to have acquired a set of wooden molds for the full-size Bugatti vices. In the early seventies he owned two type 30s (4108 with engine no. 104 and 4413) and a type 57C (chassis no. 57661C). His address was listed as (Wurtzburg)Wurzburg*. (Radiators ?)*. (Name rendered as Feier-Abend by Les Matthews and Feirabend by Hugh Conway)*

HOSKINS, Gino. The reclusive manufacturer of the best chassis frames and road springs for any Bugatti from a type 13 to a Royale. When your author visited him last, he was living in a caravan alongside his Nissen hut factory on a rain-lashed hillside in mid-Wales. He is one of a very small “magic circle” of engineers who understand the manufacturing intricacies of the rear springs of a Grand Prix Bugatti. He has an agreement to supply his products exclusively to the UK Dutton organisation.

JONES, Ray. A Michigan restorer who acquired truck loads of factory stock around 1962, just before the Hispano Suiza takeover. Some of the stock was later sold (e.g. the undrilled type 59 chassis sold to Martin Dean in the UK), but most was retained to built up several more or less original cars, including a type 54 (54210) which was acquired by Uwe Hücke in the early seventies. This car had a type 50 engine (stamped with a fictitious number 25) a type 55 frame, converted gearbox and rear axle and Spanish cast wheels. He is also believed to have owned some original cars including a type 35 (4448 with eng. no. 23) converted to 35C specification which he is thought to have sold in the early thirties*, a type 40 with chassis no. 40606 and engine no. 578 ex-40678, a type 43 (43280), and a type 51(51127). His latest project is a replica of one of the two cars built for the 1937 Grand Prix de l’ACF. These cars, which were based on type 59 frames were designated as “57S45”. (See “The 1937 ACF Cars by David Morys in BTN 12 p. 11) He was also involved with a type 73C single-seater (73C 004 or 73004 ?) which was Ettore’s last racing car design (more recently owned by John Barton in France). In late 2007 he was still advertising for sale spares he had purchased from Molsheim in 1964. He can be contacted by phone (843) 886-4765, fax (843) 886-4963 or e.mail : JonesBugatti@msn.com.

KOUX, Eric.The Danish manufacturer of replacement spares best known for his ownership of a type 37 (photograph in B.19/1/6) since the early fifties and for his replica types 55 and 57S. (He joined the UK BOC in May 1954 when he was resident in Switzerland and now lives in France*). He was a participant in the 1974 Lyon Rally and the 1976 International Bugatti Rally held in Holland driving the type 37 fitted with alloy wheels and a luggage rack but no mudguards. It carries the reg. no. KK 37 961.("Bugantics" 38/3/41). In the eighties he ran the EB Replicar concern manufacturing type 55 and 57S styled vehicles with GRP bodywork using Alfa Romeo and Jaguar engines. He was reported to be planning a run of twenty-five Atlantic bodies (see C&S April 1988, p. 4). He also constructed a replica GP fitted with an Art Deco style coupé body based on the original which was driven by Odette Reboux at the 1927 Parisian Concours d’Elegance Femina. His "replica" carried the registration no. EB 37.155 and was exhibited at the 1989 Retromobile exhibition in Paris. As a little sideline he has produced a recreation of the Bugatti bicycle, an example of which is owned by Patrick Friedli in France. In 2006 he was said to be seventy-four years old and in recent years he has taken to providing visitors to his stand at Retromobile with comfortable leather sofas where they can relax and enjoy his hospitality. He recently participated in the Corsican International Rally driving his type 57S roadster. See "Bugantics" Spring, 1997 (p.11).

RONDONI, Laurent. The proprietor of Ventoux Moteurs Ingéniérie, Boulevard Louis Giraud, 84200 Carpentras and the owner of a 35B. Since 1989, with business partner Patrick Faucompre, he has been heavily involved in the restoration of Bugattis (including the 29/30 car 4003) and the re-manufacture of new components. In an article in “Bugatti La rage de l’automobile” it is stated that he has manufactured over 250 new engines. He has acquired numerous Bugatti artefacts including the cast bronze cylinder head on display at the Bugatti Trust. (See “Bugatti Legends” p.73*). He can be contacted on Tel + 33 4 90 60 23 98 / Fax + 33 4 90 60 51 75. E.mail laurent.rondini@chello.fr. (He reportedly restored the Schlumpf collection type 32 “tank” to running order for the its public appearances in 1993 “pro bono”). (Entered for Le Mans Classic 2004 to drive a type 43 with the Lafourcades.

WRAGG, Alan W. A talented UK engineer who lived in Blidworth, Nottinghamshire. He owned, in the early seventies, a Brescia and then a type 40. He later manufactured a replica Grand Prix chassis which then generated numerous orders for copies. He is also remembered for his single-seater Austin Seven racing cars of which he built about ten. (Example of chassis no. 019B SR (Brescia – Sherwood Restorations). He was killed in a climbing accident in Scotland in the early eighties and the assets of his firm were sold by his widow in 1984. An article by Hugh Conway in Autumn, 1982 listed twenty-eight GP chassis he had made (half going to Keith Butti) and twelve type 13 and 22. He had also converted two type 44 chassis to type 44 specifications for Keith Butti.


Last edited by GCL-Wales on Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:59 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: who were the replica/recreation specialists?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:49 pm 
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Quote:
I am pleased to see that we agree on this point.As this car is not being offered for sale the owner is not obliged to satisfy our curiosity does he?

He asked our opinion didn't he?
Bugwrench


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 Post subject: Re: who were the replica/recreation specialists?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:06 am 
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Posts: 338
superleggera wrote:
[thread drift]
Let's keep the "supposed" Cholmondeley car (authentication) out of this thread and leave the arguements in the other thread(s) where it is posted. Nothing gained.

But if someone has pictures and can authenticate the non-original parts -- it is worth discussing how they were identified as being replica/recreation.
[end thread drift]

500 Gran Prix bodies? 250 engines? Whom has created a large number or replica frames as well?

Also is there any "known" identification to identify a Peel body or one of the supposed 250 receated engines?

Point of this thread was to identify whom the folks are making the replica/recreation parts. And thus the handful of "Bugatti experts" can hopefully pass down the identifying characteristics / features to "Bugatti enthusiasts" to help identify.

And let's be 100% honest, even the "Bugatti experts" aren't knowledgeable about ALL the replica/recreation parts floating around out there and how to identify specifically.

No way Laurent produced 250 new engines. The total number he worked on including the new engines could be 250 during that period.
Bugwrench


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