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 Post subject: 4840 and 4840 R
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 8:30 pm 
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Location: Reeuwijk, The Netherlands
There seems to be some data on 4840 that is not completely clear, and which is difficult to find out. It has been thought 4840 is an original car, but there seems to be proof that the car is a replica.

Who has more information on this car? Perhaps we can solve the puzzle?

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 Post subject: Re: 4840 and 4840 R
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:13 pm 
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Location: Port Elizabeth; South Africa
Hi Herman

Herewith a verbatim quote of the Remarks for 4840 in Sandy Leith's 2003 American Register :

"Car started life as a T35A but was converted to T37 with engine 132 ex-37235 prior to importation to the US. 4840 was a T37 from the mid-1950's until 1982. At this point the late Sandy MacArthur acquired an assembled Jones' T35B replica from North. To retain the Molsheim identity of 4840, both cars were disassembled with the frame of 4840 finding itself under the T35B engine and most of 4840's other running gear components ending up with the replica, now T37! This replica T37 was with John Kleen for many years and is now with Bill Jacobs.

As a T35B, 4840 made its first appearance at the 1988 Bugatti Grand Prix at Elkhart Lake."

I doubt this will solve the puzzle, but it's an interesting story all the same. What do the rest of you think - which has the better claim to the chassis number 4840 - the T37 or the T35B? I'm not getting involved in this one. At all.

Kind Regards
Johan


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 Post subject: Re: 4840 and 4840 R
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:49 pm 
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That should not be too difficult!
The car using the original Molsheim frame with the identity 4840 should still be entitled to the 4840 identity.
Bugwrench


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 Post subject: Re: 4840 and 4840 R
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 7:04 pm 
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yes.


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 Post subject: Re: 4840 and 4840 R
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 7:47 pm 
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Well that was easy, so 4840 started life as a T35A, then got a T37 engine and then a T35B engine (+ a few other bits and bobs) during the 1980's. So is it still a T35A or is it it now a T35B? Does it make a difference?

Johan


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 Post subject: Re: 4840 and 4840 R
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:31 pm 
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It makes no difference if it had a jaguar motor or a T37 motor.It was never a T37 just a T35a with a T37 engine.Now it is a T35a with a T35b engine.Pity it lost all the other original bits though.


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 Post subject: Re: 4840 and 4840 R
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:24 pm 
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Thanks Lazarus.

Sometimes the truth can be so logical it hurts. So the identity of a G.P. Bugatti is inextricably linked to the frame the factory used?

So in the case of 4840, even though quite a few original components went with the replica T37, the frame now has a T35B engine, and perhaps quite a few other components not original to 4840, the T35B that appeared in 1988 is the only car with a legitimate claim to the identity 4840?

Amazing that I should only now realise the significance of this, thanks again, I'm in you and Bugwrench's debt.

Kind Regards
Johan


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 Post subject: Re: 4840 and 4840 R
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 9:09 pm 
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My idea is that for wiki we could track the frame only (it seems that this is what suggest bugwrench and Lazarus who already wrote a few lines in this topic :

4840 produced by the factory T35 A GP Produced September 1926 engine 116. Delivered to Courtet & Jourdan, Lyon on 26/11/1926.

Early history is not known at the moment.

We found the car back in the the late 50's. Jean De Dobbeleer bought a car from Baer in 1959 and sold to Cesari in 1959. known as 37235 then. Further owners Upshur, Dumville, J.R.Harvey, Edsel Pfabe. This car was reputedly on frame 4840 with this chassis plate on the firewall.

It finally ended up with Edward S MacArthur Lake Forest, Illinois (USA) still with the T37 engine ex 37235. In 1982 ? Mac Arthur bought a 35B from Jones and he made a swap of engine and body on its 4840 frame and axles maybe ? So in the late 80's, 4840 was a 35B with an engine built up by Jones. At the same time engine 37235 went in the 35B replica frame from Jones and rebuilt by John Kleen.

Far away from that cars, in the 60's a 35A was rebuilt in the south of France using 4840 engine on a genuine T37 frame and original Molsheim parts. This car is well known as it is the famous car of M. Nicolosi.

In 2008, M. Nicolosi managed to re-unit at least the engine and frame of 4840 becoming thus the only potential 4840 owner. The 35B 4840 was dismantled for that purpose. After decades away from one another, frame and engine are now back together on the same identity.

In France, R. Barthelemy is claiming this identity as well but I doubt he has any parts coming from that car.


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 Post subject: Re: 4840 and 4840 R
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 1:50 am 
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Information of bresciabugatti is enthralling and if they are confirmed, will be put on bugattiregister as soon as possible

Kees Jansen having an access to the files of Jean de Dobbeleer can say some to us more on the origins of the 4840 and the 37235

That is envisaged on its next register: Volume III, But could perhaps give us information already

Christian


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 Post subject: Re: 4840 and 4840 R
PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 4:11 pm 
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Thank you in Kees and Bresciabugatti for received information.
allowed an update for the 4840 on bugattiregister (Wiki)

to see : http://www.bugattiregister.com/wiki/ind ... title=4840

Christian


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 Post subject: Re: 4840 and 4840 R
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:50 am 
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Location: France
bresciabugatti wrote:
My idea is that for wiki we could track the frame only (it seems that this is what suggest bugwrench and Lazarus who already wrote a few lines in this topic :

4840 produced by the factory T35 A GP Produced September 1926 engine 116. Delivered to Courtet & Jourdan, Lyon on 26/11/1926.

Early history is not known at the moment.

We found the car back in the the late 50's. Jean De Dobbeleer bought a car from Baer in 1959 and sold to Cesari in 1959. known as 37235 then. Further owners Upshur, Dumville, J.R.Harvey, Edsel Pfabe. This car was reputedly on frame 4840 with this chassis plate on the firewall.

It finally ended up with Edward S MacArthur Lake Forest, Illinois (USA) still with the T37 engine ex 37235. In 1982 ? Mac Arthur bought a 35B from Jones and he made a swap of engine and body on its 4840 frame and axles maybe ? So in the late 80's, 4840 was a 35B with an engine built up by Jones. At the same time engine 37235 went in the 35B replica frame from Jones and rebuilt by John Kleen.

Far away from that cars, in the 60's a 35A was rebuilt in the south of France using 4840 engine on a genuine T37 frame and original Molsheim parts. This car is well known as it is the famous car of M. Nicolosi.

In 2008, M. Nicolosi managed to re-unit at least the engine and frame of 4840 becoming thus the only potential 4840 owner. The 35B 4840 was dismantled for that purpose. After decades away from one another, frame and engine are now back together on the same identity.

In France, R. Barthelemy is claiming this identity as well but I doubt he has any parts coming from that car.



En français pour bresciabugatti:

Vos précisions sur la voiture de M. Nicolosi sont intéressantes, mais il reste quelques questions sans réponse.

Quand elle a eu le moteur 37 (probablement le 132) voiture connue en tant que 37235. A changé d'identité quand elle a reçu le moteur 116A du ex-4840 en utilisant la carte grise du 4840, alors qu'apparemment le chassis était le même ! Etait ce vraiment le chassis 37235 ? ou un autre type 37 ou 35 (4332?).

Ce n'était pas le 4840 quand il était en possession de Bob Baer (CH), jusqu' à Edsel Pfabe (USA)

Il est devenu le 4840 après regroupement du châssis et du moteur d'origine, tout cela à partir d'une plaque de chassis, d'un moteur et d'une Carte Grise après une longue histoire.

Si c'est le cas, à mon avis la première partie de cette histoire devrait être rattachée au 37235.

Mais quelle est l'histoire du 4332 qui a été associé à cette voiture ?

Tout cela n'est pas précisé, peut être pourriez vous nous en dire plus

Christian


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