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4808 http://www.bugattibuilder.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=1518 |
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Author: | Bugwrench [ Fri Jul 10, 2009 5:01 pm ] |
Post subject: | 4808 |
Talking about WIKI and it's shortcomings: Can you please let me know who entered the current information about 4808 before I say anything further. Thanks, Bugwrench |
Author: | Herman [ Fri Jul 10, 2009 7:20 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: 4808 |
there is no 4808, there is a '4808'R, which has been edited by Christian. However the main part of the file was imported from the old wiki, losing its history in the process. If it is really important, i can retrieve it, but it is an ugly job to do. |
Author: | Johan Buchner [ Fri Jul 10, 2009 8:57 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: 4808 |
Herewith the information I could find on 4808. The only 2 references are in Conway's G.P. and Memoirs of a Bugatti Hunter. If I understand Raffaelli correct he included details of surviving cars only, but I couldn't find anything in either of the Dutch Registers, the 2003 American Register or the 1996 Sewell Register about 4808. Obviously a lot of information is currently missing from Wiki and I for one am looking forward to any contribution by Bugwrench. From Conway : T35 / 4808 / engine:87 / delivered September 1926 to A. Joly of Tunis / Survives in France - converted to unblown T51.* * Information identical in Magnum except for current location [1989] given as UK, no mention of the T51 conversion. From Memoirs etc. : Type : 35 Order Number : 206 Engine Number : 87 Frame Number : blank Herewith a verbatim quote of the text on p161 : "Delivered in September 1926 to A. Joly, Bugatti Agent in Tunis. Registered 6193 TU on 10 September 1928. Sold on 27 October 1928, 890 BA, Francois Eysermann, 167 Promenade des Anglais, Nice. Sold on 2 April 1930, David Carbau, 21 Rue Michelet, Nice. Sold on 18 May 1932, Stella Carbone, 10 Rue Diderot, Nice. Sold on 15 March 1933, 3944 ZA 2, George Mayrin, Avenue de la Gare, Valreas. Sold on 8 November 1938, 5985 FA 3." Two in period photographs, captions as follows : 1) Comminges Grand Prix, 7 August 1927, won by Eysermann in 4808. 2) 4808, with its scuttle cowl removed, at Mount Ventoux in 1933. The second photograph, showing the car from direct front is registered 3944 ZA 2 and seems, I repeat - seems, to have been fitted with a larger radiator. Over to you Bugwrench. Please. Thanks Johan Buchner |
Author: | Bugwrench [ Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:42 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: 4808 |
Well, I will keep it short. It looks like the delinquent has escaped already..... 4808 currently owned by Mr. Strub is a very authentic, Molsheim produced Bugatti although she did not leave the factory in the same configuration as she presents herself today. The history of this car is known and well documented because of the fact that she was involved in a legal issue some years ago. The person that has entered this false information should be punished by keeping him away from WIKI forever. Oh, I nearly forget. Who at WIKI is so ignorant to believe that you can participate in the Monaco Historic GP with a replica GP Bugatti as listed in the history of this car? Bugwrench (I tried to keep my voice down) |
Author: | bugatti69 [ Sat Jul 11, 2009 12:34 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: 4808 |
page 221 "...Type35 4808-R: Type 35, rebuilt as a 51A and owned by Jaap Braam Ruben for a couple of years (A full page with structured information and pictures will be ed in Volume III of The Bugatti Register The Netherlands Belgium)..." It is a Type 51A R, replica rebuilt one frame 4808 On bugattiregister (WIKI) : '4808'-R replaced by 4808-R http://www.bugattiregister.com/wiki/ind ... tle=4808-R Christian |
Author: | Johan Buchner [ Sat Jul 11, 2009 2:30 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: 4808 |
I'm still confused - Bugwrench says that Mr. Stubbs owns a very original car. But Wiki has it listed as 4808-R. Needless to say I know nothing about the court case either. Come on Bugwrench, gives us all the juicy details - no need to keep your voice down either. Johan |
Author: | Herman [ Sat Jul 11, 2009 9:07 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: 4808 |
So basicly it is an original T35 (4808) which at some point has been changed to T51A specs? |
Author: | bugatti69 [ Sat Jul 11, 2009 9:28 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: 4808 |
- There would be only the frame of origin ! the engine, the body, the radiator, the wheels, the instrument panel would not be it |
Author: | Bugwrench [ Sat Jul 11, 2009 10:23 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: 4808 |
Herman wrote: So basicly it is an original T35 (4808) which at some point has been changed to T51A specs? Correct but not a T51A because the engine remained an unblown 2 liter which was much later modified to 51C specs using original parts. I do not know what crank is currently used. I guess it is a 2.3 now. Bugwrench |
Author: | Bugwrench [ Sat Jul 11, 2009 11:01 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: 4808 |
bugatti69 wrote: - There would be only the frame of origin ! the engine, the body, the radiator, the wheels, the instrument panel would not be it Remember that I first asked about the origin of the information but I did not get an adequate answer. The preview of cars scheduled for Vol III contains typing errors that got unnoticed and this is one of them. The way it is listed: 4808: R indicates already that something is wrong as that is not the proper way to describe a replica but I understand it led to confusion. But if Christian now realises that the frame is original why does he still maintain the R? Who says that the engine is not original? And the body? And all the other major components. Bugwrench |
Author: | Lazarus [ Sat Jul 11, 2009 11:21 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: 4808 |
bugatti69 wrote: - There would be only the frame of origin ! the engine, the body, the radiator, the wheels, the instrument panel would not be it I thought that we had adaquately dealt with this situation.A Bugatti racing car would inevitably have many changes during its life.One owner [or even the factory] may want to go to 1500cc for a particular race or even upgrade to twincam when it became available.A Bugatti grand prix car MUST be considered original if it has an original chassis.The chassis must be considered the basis of a car,and the most important part of a continuous history.By dictionary definition a car with an original chassis can never be a replica.Perhaps the problem here is for our non english speaking friends who do not understand english well enough to know what the word replica means.As to the overall original content in a particular car,this will always be of most importance to [a] the man selling said car and [b] the man buying said car.It is the owners decision to tell the register [if he wishes to] exactly what is and what is not original and from whence the parts came.[if he knows] For myself I would be content if this car were to be listed as T35 number 4808 currently running as T51.One major problem we face in the Bugatti world is that there are quite a lot of Bugattis in France which are registered as what they are not.As this has been the only way to get them on the road where they belong.As far as my reading of the relevant european regulations is concerned there is no LEGAL way to register a new Argentinian T35/51 in europe and yet there are so many registered in europe.How has this been achieved ? Is it any wonder that our dear french friends are so touchy when this subject is raised. |
Author: | Herman [ Sat Jul 11, 2009 12:03 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: 4808 |
Is it only the French which get Pur Sang Argentina cars road registered? No. So why is it particularly them that make all the fuss? The fact that they have been messing around with chassis numbers is something that they have to bear the consequences for. Legally, the chassis number is the only thing that counts. It would be a strange world if someone needs to do illegal actions just because he blew his engine (classic car or modern car, no difference there) and got himself a replacement engine. Or some body parts, or whatever, except the chassis. In fact, it is the chassis that counts. Whatever is mounted on it, is determining the type of the car. In case of the type 38 frame that was mentioned: A certain company (Pur Sang Argentina) fitted an engine in, and some bodywork around it, resembling a T43. Visitors now, will continue later. |
Author: | bugatti69 [ Sat Jul 11, 2009 12:49 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: 4808 |
Bugwrench wrote: bugatti69 wrote: - There would be only the frame of origin ! the engine, the body, the radiator, the wheels, the instrument panel would not be it Remember that I first asked about the origin of the information but I did not get an adequate answer. The preview of cars scheduled for Vol III contains typing errors that got unnoticed and this is one of them. The way it is listed: 4808: R indicates already that something is wrong as that is not the proper way to describe a replica but I understand it led to confusion. But if Christian now realises that the frame is original why does he still maintain the R? Who says that the engine is not original? And the body? And all the other major components. Bugwrench if mention of 4808: R is an error, and that your precise details are exact, then not confusion. 4808: R under heard that the T51A > since 51C was rebuilt like a replica on frame 4808. I recognize that with created a confusion that Kees certainly will update on its vol. III Thank you for your precise details, this debate is useful and allows me to update bugattiregister (Wiki) Christian |
Author: | Herman [ Sat Jul 11, 2009 1:38 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: 4808 |
Continuation from my previous post: There are 2 ways of keeping track of numbers: -1. Categorised on the registered chassis number (need not be the same as actual chassis number) -2. Categorised on the actual chassis number. This certainly has impact on some cars, and it needs careful consideration on which system to follow. In any case, the description of the car should make clear whatever is the current situation. |
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