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 Post subject: Re: 53001 53002 53003
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 7:20 pm 
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Posts: 2285
Michael Müller wrote:
So all 3 registrations (8264/65/66) are - juridically - fakes? Didn't knew that, so that means basically the registrations are no fix point for identification of the cars, they could have swapped them easily.

That is also my opinion ...


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 Post subject: Re: 53001 53002 53003
PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 12:23 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 5:17 pm
Posts: 348
I have been doing further research which invalidates a lot of what has been stated above.

I will in due course produce an illustrated booklet bringing together everything I have discovered.

1 - The factory records contain very little information about the 53s.

2 - The persons who put the information into the 2004 edition of "The Grand Prix Bugatti" about the types 53 can't explain why delivery dates were listed for these cars.

3 - There is no agreement at all between the various sources relating to the Shelsley Walsh crash in June 1932. Jean's accident either happened on his first, second or third run! I'm inclined to believe the first. If he had made it to the holding-bay at the top of the hill there would have been an ideal oportunity for people to take pictures of car and driver, but none exist.

4 - The car's competition no. for Shelsley is said to have been 80. However, the only number evident is the indistinct remains of the 14 which is painted on the car in the official photographs taken at Molsheim. (Julius Kruta, who has custody of the factory archives gives the Shelsley c.n. as 14).

5 - Divo was entered for Monaco under the number 14 but it is reported that one or more of the three other team drivers tried the 53 in practice. Would this explain why there are no pictures of the car at Monaco carrying number 14.

6 - A respected UK restorer inspected the rolling chassis at Mulhouse and noted that far from being built from unused components there was evidence of wear and tear on most major parts. The frame number appeared to be "1" and the rear-axle centre casting and front spring mountings are also marked "1".

7 - The "recreation" assembled by de Dobbeleer has a chassis plate stamped 53002 which is definitely the original. The chassis frame is also original and is stamped "3" in the correct position. However, the rear tubular cross-member shows signs of damage caused by having been dragged backwards, as was the car crashed by Jean. It has later been modified to allow the fitment of the later type 50B supercharger which necessitated the relocation of the steering box. The front trans-axle also shows evidence of accident damage. The main top spring leaf has been broken but re-welded and the left-hand front brake backplate has been damaged in a way which is consistent with the wheel having gone beyond its normal limit of lock due to accident damage. The conclusion is that the recreated car now owned by Miguel Gonzales in Spain has been assembled from the 1935 Benoist car car which was apparently based on the chassis and repaired front end from the Shelsley car.

8 - Question : what is the source for the chassis numbers attributed to the two team cars driven by Chiron (53002) and Varzi in 1932 (53003) ?

9 - The person sitting in the car at Molsheim which carried the no. 160 is said to be Antoine Pichetto.


Last edited by GCL-Wales on Sun Nov 29, 2009 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 53001 53002 53003
PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 12:28 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 12, 2004 4:26 pm
Posts: 2620
Location: Reeuwijk, The Netherlands
There is a bunch of T53 Chassis photos on the photo server, which I took at Bremen (Mulhouse chassis). Perhaps there is something usefull to illustrate your story.

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Vive la Marque !!


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 Post subject: Re: 53001 53002 53003
PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 12:58 pm 
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GCL-Wales wrote:
4 - The car's competition no. for Shelsley is said to have been 80. However, the only number evident is a 4 which looks like the remains of the 14 which is painted on the car in the official photographs taken at Molsheim. (Julius Kruta, who has custody of the factory archives gives the Shelsley c.n. as 14).

I see #14 clear ...
Image


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 Post subject: Re: 53001 53002 53003
PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 1:43 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 11:06 am
Posts: 789
Location: France
Uwe wrote:
GCL-Wales wrote:
4 - The car's competition no. for Shelsley is said to have been 80. However, the only number evident is a 4 which looks like the remains of the 14 which is painted on the car in the official photographs taken at Molsheim. (Julius Kruta, who has custody of the factory archives gives the Shelsley c.n. as 14).

I see #14 clear ...
Image


Image


53001- Shelsley Walsh, 24th June 1932, Jean Bugatti (with 8266 NV1 of 53002)

Image

Image

Image

Image


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 Post subject: Re: 53001 53002 53003
PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 2:12 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 5:17 pm
Posts: 348
Thanks for offer of Bremen pictures which I have looked at already and will look at again in the light of new information.

I had forgotten about pictures showing 14 on front of crashed car. If the car carried Divo's no. 14 at Monaco why doesn't this painted no. appear in the frontal picture with Divo driving and Wurmser in the passenger seat ?

It has just occurred to me that competitors at Shelsley around this time were issued with professionally produced white cards with printed black competition numbers. I think they must have had an adhesive back because there is no evidence of string (and I'm sure tie-wraps hadn't been invented).

To check these out I have just had a look at Simon Taylor's "The Shelsley Walsh Story" which contains three pictures.

Page 61 has the well-known picture of Jean presumably about to set off for his run with Earl Howe and a young mechanic looking on. There are no competition numbers evident.

Page 62 shows Jean at the Esses in the type 55 he drove in the event with the no. 80
prominently attached to the front registration plate.

Page 63 shows Howe making FTD in his type 51 carrying the card competition no. 67
attached to the front apron.

The source for my comments about no. 80 was the late Walter Gibbs who was the Midland Autombile Club archivist and attented the June 1932 meeting. Although he was not present for Friday's practice runs he normally recorded practice times. His records reveal no record of a time having been recorded by Jean. The only mention of the latter indicates that he was entered in class 6 with a supercharged 4WD 4840cc Bugatti with competition no. 80.

The MAC held a committee meeting about two weeks after the meeting and his records of the meeting make no mention of Jean Bugatti having been allowed more than the standard single practice run.

HOWEVER, the respected journalist and hill-climb competitor Austen May claimed to have witnessed "the most startling climb ever seen on the hill".


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 Post subject: Re: 53001 53002 53003
PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:17 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2007 10:39 am
Posts: 1029
Location: Port Elizabeth; South Africa
This thread, a very complicated and detailed thread, deals with 3 cars only. My sincerest thanks to the contributors concerned, your efforts expanded my knowledge of the T53 no-end. Can we not apply this level of investigation to all the racers? A massive undertaking though.

Kind Regards
Johan Buchner


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 Post subject: Re: 53001 53002 53003
PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 10:33 am 
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Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 5:17 pm
Posts: 348
BALL OF CONFUSION

After days of research regarding the car now owned by Miguel Gonzales in Spain, the conclusion creates more questions than it answers.

The rolling chassis is almost certainly from the prototype 1931 car which was crashed at Shelsley by JB (which one might have hoped would be car 53001 with engine 1 and chassis frame 1).

In fact, all available evidence suggests that the Gonzales car is 53002 with chassis frame 3 (and now engine 2).

To add to the confusion it is clear that the chassis was modified late in life to accept a larger supercharger.

To add further to the confusion, the "delivery dates" listed in the 3rd edition of Conway's "Grand Prix Bugatti" (updated in 2004) are nonsense as none of the three cars were sold or ever intended to be. (The person responsible for the update is at a loss to explain these dates).

The stories about the car's handling being damaged by the fitment of simple Hooke joints at the outer end of the front drive shafts is also nonsense. Before the cars competed the factory had produced drawings of CV joints entitled "Joint Tracta". One has to assume that these were put into use. The car's competition record was in fact very good and extended over four seasons Everyone who has subsequently driven car 53002 has expressed delight at how easy it it is to drive and how light the steering is.

I am putting together an illustrated about the convoluted history of this model which I will post on the internet for discussion in due course.


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 Post subject: Re: 53001 53002 53003
PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:26 pm 
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Posts: 338
GCL-Wales wrote:
BALL OF CONFUSION

The stories about the car's handling being damaged by the fitment of simple Hooke joints at the outer end of the front drive shafts is also nonsense. Before the cars competed the factory had produced drawings of CV joints entitled "Joint Tracta". One has to assume that these were put into use. The car's competition record was in fact very good and extended over four seasons Everyone who has subsequently driven car 53002 has expressed delight at how easy it it is to drive and how light the steering is.


I never believed the handling of the T53 was that bad and I never understood who created the myth and why. But the same can be said about the T32. I do not believe it was that bad. Of course the T35 was a better overall concept.
50 years ago I already had the intention to one day bust the myths but unfortunately I never got the opportunity.
Bugwrench


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