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4309 NV1 - Molsheim - catalogue pictures - 1931 according to Bugatti Trust
4309 NV1 - Monaco - 16/04/32 ( Comp. no. 14 ?)
8264 NV1 - 54208 - registered Strasbourg 6th May 1932
8264 NV1 - 99 - Klausen - Chiron - 1932
8265 NV1 - 54209 - registered Strasbourg 6th May 1932
8265 NV1 - 35 - Ventoux - Divo - second - 1932 (No, this was in 1934. I have 2 photos, but the registration is unreadable)

8265 NV1 - 35 - Ventoux - Divo - second - 4th September 1932 (cf. Mont Ventoux 75 ans de sports mécaniques 1902-1976 by Maurice Louche, picture on page 151 and 156)

8265 NV1 - 98 - Klausen - Varzi - 1932
8265 NV1 - 177 - Freiburg - Varzi - third - 1932
8266 NV1 - 54210 - registered Strasbourg 6th May 1932
8266 NV1 - 178 - Freiburg - Chiron - 1932 (Have countless photos of Chiron at Freiburg, but on none of them the reg. could be identified. Which spurce for 8266 instead of 8264 as at Klausen?)
8266 NV1 - 14 - Shelsley Walsh - Bugatti -1932
8266 NV1 - 160 - La Turbie- Dreyfus - 29/03/34 (Yes, r/n could also read 160 instead of 100)

#160

8266 NV1 - 66 - Chateau Thierry - Benoist - 1935
8266 NV1 - de Dobbleeer recreation in recent years

So all 3 registrations (8264/65/66) are - juridically - fakes? Didn't knew that, so that means basically the registrations are no fix point for identification of the cars, they could have swapped them easily.

Author:	GCL-Wales [ Thu Nov 19, 2009 5:14 pm ]
Post subject:	53001 53002 53003
I think that the picture gallery and WIKI have got these cars mixed up. Could the following serve as the basis for future discussions. 53001 The first 53 built. Tested at Monaco but not raced. Crashed by Jean Bugatti at Shelsley then dismantled. Rebuilt as a rolling chassis for Schlumpf museum. 53002 The car was used in a variety of events first with low level then a high-level exhaust. Then scrapped. 53003 The car was used in a variety of events first with low level then a high-level exhaust Then scrapped. 53 de Dobbeleer Recreation. A well known car built on a new chassis frame with a type 54 engine. Often referred to as (53002) but none of its major parts are known to have come from that car.

Author:	Michael Müller [ Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 53001 53002 53003
I do not agree. 24 Mar 1932 - La Turbie HC Chiron - #53002 Varzi - #53003 3 Apr 1932 - Chateau Thierry HC Chiron - #53002 Varzi - #53003 16 Apr 1932 - Monaco GP training Divo - #? - reg. 4309-NV1 Fake registration, originally belonging to #50112, the 1931 Le Mans Chiron/Varzi car. 24 Jun 1932 - Shelsley Walsh Jean Bugatti - #? - r/n 14- reg. 8266-NV1 Same car as Monaco, the "14" still visible on the radiator cowling mesh. Possibly the car was legally registered now because of border crossing. 7 Aug 1932 - Klausenrennen Chiron - #53002 - r/n 99 - reg. 8264-NV-1 Varzi - #53003 - r/n ? - reg. 8265-NV-1 21 Aug 1932 - Schauinsland HC Chiron - #53002 - r/n 178 - reg. 8264-NV-1 Varzi - #53003 - r/n 177 - reg. 8265-NV-1 Here both cars have the high-level exhaust, which was not in place 2 weeks earlier at Klausen. 29 Mar 1934 - La Turbie HC Dreyfus - #? - r/n 100 - reg. ? High-level exhaust 16 Sep 1934 - Mont Ventoux HC Divo - #? - r/n 35 - reg. ? High-level exhaust 7 Apr 1935 - Chateau Thierry HC Benoist - #? - r/n 66 - reg. 8266-NV-1 High-level exhaust Unfortunately no photos of the early duties at La Turbie and Chateau Thierry, so no idea on the registration. If #53002 and #53003 had been registered then already, then the Monaco car must have been #53001 (why using a fake registration for a registered car?). And for sure the Shelsley Walsh car was the same as that at Monaco. The Chiron car at Klausen had the bottom-level exhaust, unclear for the Varzi car. But for sure 2 weeks later at Freiburg (Schauinsland) BOTH had the high-level pipe. Most probably the 1934/35 car was either #53002 or #53003, but why now the 8266 registration is a miracle.

Author:	bugatti69 [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:14 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 53001 53002 53003
I do not agree. 53001 >4309-NV1 (F) n°14, 8265-NV1 (F), 53002 > 8266-NV1 (F), (dito reg. 54210) 53003 > 8264-NV1 (dito reg. T54 in 1933)

Author:	GCL-Wales [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:42 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 53001 53002 53003 - Registrations
1843 W84 De Dobbeleer recreation - 53002 (during ownership of U.H. ?) 4309 NV1 - 50112, the 1931 Le Mans Chiron/Varzi car. 4309 NV1 - Molsheim - 1931 according to Bugatti Trust but actually around May 1932 4309 NV1 - Monaco - 16/04/32 ( Comp. no. 14 ?) 8264 NV1 - 54208 - registered Strasbourg 6th May 1932 8264 NV1 - 99 - Klausen - Chiron - 1932 8265 NV1 - 54209 - registered Strasbourg 6th May 1932 8265 NV1 - 98 - Klausen - Varzi - 1932 8265 NV1 - 177 - Freiburg - Varzi - third - 1932 8265 NV1 - 35 - Ventoux - Divo - second - 1934 8266 NV1 - 54210 - registered Strasbourg 6th May 1932 8266 NV1 - 178 - Freiburg - Chiron - 1932 8266 NV1 - 14 - Shelsley Walsh - Bugatti -1932 8266 NV1 - 160 - La Turbie- Dreyfus - 29/03/34 8266 NV1 - 66 - Chateau Thierry - Benoist - 1935 8266 NV1 - de Dobbeleer recreation - 53002 ASJ 396 - UK registration issued to Uwe Hucke People who have driven TYPE 53 in alphabetical order ! Robert Benoist Jean Bugatti Louis Chiron Ben Collings Hugh Conway Sean Danaher Albert Divo René Dreyfus Richard Day Miguel Gonzales Lukas Huni Angela Hücke Uwe Hücke Jacques Lafitte Barrie Price Murray Smith Geoffrey St.John Achille Varzi Interim conclusions : 53001, the prototype, was pictured at Molsheim then used at Monaco and Shelsley Walsh. It can be identified by the absence of a slot where the starting handle passes through front bodywork. 53001 carried two different registrations. Either it was rebuilt as a rolling chassis after its crash or the UK BOC is wrong in listing the chassis at the Schlumpf collection as 53001. The Netherlands Register entry for 53002 is incorrect. Car shown is 53001. Questios : The Netherlands Register II (p. 125) says that De. D. "got a chassis plate stamped 53002". Does this mean he OBTAINED the original chassis plate from 53002 or he had a new one stamped with that number ?

Author:	Michael Müller [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 2:36 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 53001 53002 53003
4309 NV1 - Molsheim - catalogue pictures - 1931 according to Bugatti Trust 4309 NV1 - Monaco - 16/04/32 ( Comp. no. 14 ?) 8264 NV1 - 54208 - registered Strasbourg 6th May 1932 8264 NV1 - 99 - Klausen - Chiron - 1932 8265 NV1 - 54209 - registered Strasbourg 6th May 1932 8265 NV1 - 35 - Ventoux - Divo - second - 1932 (No, this was in 1934. I have 2 photos, but the registration is unreadable) 8265 NV1 - 98 - Klausen - Varzi - 1932 8265 NV1 - 177 - Freiburg - Varzi - third - 1932 8266 NV1 - 54210 - registered Strasbourg 6th May 1932 8266 NV1 - 178 - Freiburg - Chiron - 1932 (Have countless photos of Chiron at Freiburg, but on none of them the reg. could be identified. Which source for 8266 instead of 8264 as at Klausen?) 8266 NV1 - 14 - Shelsley Walsh - Bugatti -1932 8266 NV1 - 160 - La Turbie- Dreyfus - 29/03/34 (Yes, r/n could also read 160 instead of 100) 8266 NV1 - 66 - Chateau Thierry - Benoist - 1935 8266 NV1 - de Dobbleeer recreation in recent years So all 3 registrations (8264/65/66) are - juridically - fakes? Didn't knew that, so that means basically the registrations are no fix point for identification of the cars, they could have swapped them easily.

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53001 53002 53003 http://www.bugattibuilder.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=1685	Page 1 of 2

Author:	Michael Müller [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 3:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 53001 53002 53003
Chiron at Freiburg: Varzi at Freiburg: Clearly both cars with high-level exhaust, which confirms that there was more than one car with this feature. (Sorry for cuts, have to respect copyrights)

Author:	bugatti69 [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 3:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 53001 53002 53003
Michael Müller wrote: 4309 NV1 - Molsheim - catalogue pictures - 1931 according to Bugatti Trust 4309 NV1 - Monaco - 16/04/32 ( Comp. no. 14 ?) 8264 NV1 - 54208 - registered Strasbourg 6th May 1932 8264 NV1 - 99 - Klausen - Chiron - 1932 8265 NV1 - 54209 - registered Strasbourg 6th May 1932 8265 NV1 - 35 - Ventoux - Divo - second - 1932 (No, this was in 1934. I have 2 photos, but the registration is unreadable) 8265 NV1 - 35 - Ventoux - Divo - second - 4th September 1932 (cf. Mont Ventoux 75 ans de sports mécaniques 1902-1976 by Maurice Louche, picture on page 151 and 156) 8265 NV1 - 98 - Klausen - Varzi - 1932 8265 NV1 - 177 - Freiburg - Varzi - third - 1932 8266 NV1 - 54210 - registered Strasbourg 6th May 1932 8266 NV1 - 178 - Freiburg - Chiron - 1932 (Have countless photos of Chiron at Freiburg, but on none of them the reg. could be identified. Which spurce for 8266 instead of 8264 as at Klausen?) 8266 NV1 - 14 - Shelsley Walsh - Bugatti -1932 8266 NV1 - 160 - La Turbie- Dreyfus - 29/03/34 (Yes, r/n could also read 160 instead of 100) #160 8266 NV1 - 66 - Chateau Thierry - Benoist - 1935 8266 NV1 - de Dobbleeer recreation in recent years So all 3 registrations (8264/65/66) are - juridically - fakes? Didn't knew that, so that means basically the registrations are no fix point for identification of the cars, they could have swapped them easily.

Author:	Michael Müller [ Fri Nov 20, 2009 4:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 53001 53002 53003
Yes, right. I have this photo also but forgot. I based my 100/160 on this one:

Author:	GCL-Wales [ Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:36 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 53001 53002 53003
More observations/questions. The Bugatti Trust pictures of 53001 (said to date from 1931) show a car carrying the comp. no. 14 which was the one carried by the car driven on 24th June 1932 at Shelsley by Jean Bugatti. Conclusion : the captions on the Bugatti Trust pictures are wrong. Under the heading "Type 53 - One" The 1954 "Bugatti Book" states that "This car, the only one of its type, is at the works at Molsheim. It has not been rebuilt after the late Jean Bugatti crashed it at Shelsley Walsh. The implication of this is that 53002 and 53003 were scrapped. (No doubt their engines were re-used). Conclusion : The car now claimed to be "53002" is a "fake". The type 53 rolling chassis which has been on display at the Schlumf Collection is said to be "53001". Is this then the "Shelsley Walsh" car which was rebuilt between 1954 and the sixties to be sold on to Fritz Sclumpf ? The 1962 Bugatti Register records 53002 with de Dobbeleer. Conslusion : Hugh Conway was less than rigorous when it came to making entries in his "Registers". Re. Michaels query about Divo at Venoux - reg. 8265 NV1 is clearly shown in Bugatti Trust picture 84A. I can't as yet find my source for 8266 NV1 at Klausen. Some captions refer to Fribourg (which is in Switzerland) others to Freibourg (Germany). I assume the latter is correct. 53002 and 53003 have very slight bodywork differences which can be identified in some of the large format pictures published. For example : note the position of the rear bonnet strap retaining bracket in the picture taken at Glarus in "From Milan to Molsheim" (p.556/7). Note also the deceptiveness of published pictures. Car 99 at Glarus (Klausenrennen) looks a very pale colour but pictures taken on the hill show a much darker looking car. Grand Prix Bugatti (2004) lists 53002 as having been delivered on "07.32". Question ; to whom was the car delivered ? "53002" Assuming that Kees Jansen's information about the car which lays claim to this chassis number is correct (i.e. that it was a bitza built with an unused chassis and a type 54 engine) then the UK BOC is incorrect to list a car with this chassis no. as having survived. Grand Prix Bugatti (2004) lists 53003 as having been delivered on "08.33. Question ; to whom was the car delivered ? Question : was there an article about the history of the type 53 in "Bugantics" a few years ago ?

Author:	Michael Müller [ Sat Nov 21, 2009 10:12 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 53001 53002 53003
8266-NV1 as used by the car at Shelsley was registered as such on 6 May 1932. The Monaco GP was on 17 April. Therefore the photos with 4309-NV1 are older than those from Shelsley and 8266-NV1. At Monaco Divo had r/n 14. Also the "14" painted on both sides of the bonnet are not in place anymore at Shelsley. However, I believe that the series of photos with 4309 and 14 has not been taken at Monaco itself, but later back at Molsheim.

Author:	GCL-Wales [ Sat Nov 21, 2009 11:19 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 53001 53002 53003
The well known picture of 53001 (with Wurmser in the passenger seat) shows no race numbers. The picture you show above with the caption "Monaco" is in fact the picture taken at Molsheim and wrongly dated by the Bugatti Trust as 1931 (unless the Midland Automobile Club allocated comp. nos. a year in advance!). But 14 WAS on the car's bonnet at Shelsley (see Jonathan Wood p. 231). No doubt they were painted in emsulsion which had been partially washed away by English rain. There was definitely heavy rain at Shelsley on Saturday - maybe some on Friday as well ? Unless I can see a picture of the car with no. 14 painted on it at Monaco the only conclusion is that the pictures taken ar Molsheim (the serial nos. on them are those of the local professional studio) were taken sometime after Monaco (17th April) but before Shelsley (23rd June). The issue of the new registration does not mean that it was immediately applied to the car. "Bugantics" August 1932 shows no pictures but merely records that "Jean Bugatti had the infernal bad luck to crash the four-wheel drive in practice on Friday". Jean was impressed by the UK BOC but "quite convinced that such a club could not possibly be run in France, owing to the complete lack of English Club spirit and general esprit-de corps".

Author:	Michael Müller [ Sat Nov 21, 2009 4:26 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 53001 53002 53003
GCL-Wales wrote: Unless I can see a picture of the car with no. 14 painted on it at Monaco the only conclusion is that the pictures taken at Molsheim (the serial nos. on them are those of the local professional studio) were taken sometime after Monaco (17th April) but before Shelsley (23rd June). This is my believe also.

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