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 Post subject: Re: 4923
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:03 pm 
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There are two 4928:
4928 engine 191
4928 engine 179
the engine in museum Mulhouse is 4928/191


Last edited by Uwe on Mon May 12, 2014 6:59 am, edited 6 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 4923/4928
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 4:15 pm 
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Location: France
1974-NV (F) : Registered by Automobiles Ettore Bugatti at Préfecture du Bas-Rhin on 28th Mars 1929 as type 35 number 4923.

1975-NV (F) : Registered by Automobiles Ettore Bugatti at Préfecture du Bas-Rhin on 28th Mars 1929 as type 35 number 4928

It is a well-known fact that that the papers of 4923 and 4928 - both TF cars - had been mixed up when the cars were sold.
Engine re-stamped 4696 in 1931 by E. Bjørnstad to avoid import duties in Norway and to match his earlier purchased car with the same chassis number.

4928 with 191 engine
4923 with 179 engine

4928 Mulhouse: be you sure that the car of Mulhouse is the 4928 with engine 191 (or 179) ?
Conway : 4928 with 179 at Mulhouse ???
To my knowledge, chassis and engine, it is not checked, nor not confirmed


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 Post subject: Re: 4923/4928
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 5:36 pm 
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Museum catalogue with engine 4928/191


Last edited by Uwe on Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:54 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 4923/4928
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 7:10 pm 
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Location: France
Thank you for this information.
Thus they would be well the 4928 with engine 191 (and not 179 per 4928 as being specified by Conway)


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 Post subject: Re: 4923/4928
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 7:11 pm 
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Last edited by Uwe on Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 4923/4928
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 7:32 pm 
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Location: France
Information of Conway is not always exact.

Since some were modified


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 Post subject: Re: 4923/4928
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:11 pm 
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ex-Jean de l'Espée definitely with engine 4928/179

Image


Last edited by Uwe on Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:55 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 4923/4928
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:53 pm 
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Location: France
1974-NV (F) : Registered by Automobiles Ettore Bugatti at Préfecture du Bas-Rhin on 28th Mars 1929 as type 35 number 4923

1975-NV (F) : Registered by Automobiles Ettore Bugatti at Préfecture du Bas-Rhin on 28th Mars 1929 as type 35 number 4928

Image

- type 39, 1500cm3: 10CV
- type 35 (35 and 35C) 2000cm3: 11CV
- type 35B 2300cm3: 13CV


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 Post subject: Re: 4923/4928
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:31 am 
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Last edited by Uwe on Mon May 12, 2014 7:01 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 4923/4928
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:55 pm 
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Location: France
However that makes it possible to identify the cars by the Prefectoral Administration and constitutes an official part.

During the delivery of 4923 and 4928, the factory did not give the good documents to each of the two cars and reversed, from where confusion for Targa Florio and after…


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 Post subject: Re: 4923/4928
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:11 pm 
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Last edited by Uwe on Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 4923/4928
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:49 am 
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Location: France
It is the interpretation of David Sewell.

I have another version:
The error was the number painted 1974-NV and 1975-NV which corresponded to the Automobile license delivered with each car, but not with the number stamped on the frame. The "Cartes Grise" of 4923 and 4928 were reversed.

In both cases the result is the same one:
the painted numbers were reversed, not the chassis numbers.


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 Post subject: Re: 4923/4928
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:58 am 
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Last edited by Uwe on Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:06 pm, edited 8 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 4923/4928
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:12 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 4:21 pm
Posts: 434
Location: Bergen NH (NL)
It's all not that easy.... :|

Some general things should be considered. Normally cars had "chassis numbers", as the general sight of view was that the frame is the "heart" of an automobile. Therefore such chassis numbers had been punched into a car's frame, with the effect that this frame legally was the "car". Everything else legally had been components only, all of which could be substituted without changing the car's identity. This system was based on the fact that in case a frame is damaged beyond reasonable repair the whole car will be written off, with surviving parts used as spares only.
Bugatti had a different philosophy, they considered also the frame as component only, and give more attention to the engine. Possibly not all of you are aware about the fact that no Bugatti frame ever carried the "chassis number"! They only had a component (= frame) number, as did also all other major components like engine, gearbox, differential etc. Therefore the term "chassis number" for Bugattis generally is not correct, to be more precisely the word "vehicle number" should be used.
This vehicle number normally is displayed on the brass plate which is bolted to the bulkhead of the cars. However, legislation - even in that days - required that the VIN (a modern term, but fitting perfectly to old Bugattis) must be applied to the car in an unremovable manner. All manufacturers - except Bugatti - opted to punch the number into the frame, a system which is still used today, although modern cars do not have a frame as such, but a monocoque body construction. Bugatti instead stamped the serial to the lower crankcase of the engine, more precisely to the left aft engine mounting, see photo below.

Is this now part of the engine or part of the chassis? Well, basically engine, because on the same mounting also the engine number was stamped, additionally to the vehicle number. But in practice often the change of an engine didn't included the sump which was left to the chassis.

Another thing which must be considered is the fact that already in period - meaning during the active racing career of a car - components had been substituted because of accidents, engine damages, upgrades, conversions, etc. Some examples may show the complexity of that.

(1) A T35C engine is exchanged against a T51 unit without the sump. The car's identity is unchanged, but also that of the engine because the sump now carries the old engine number.

(2) Same scenario, but engine is changed WITH the sump. Now the car shows the correct - new - engine number, but also the vehicle number of the donor car.

(3) A crashed T35B is repaired with with the frame of an abandoned T37. According to the Bugatti philosophy the frame is only an interchangeable spare part, but legally it is the identity of the car.

This list can be enlarged by countless other potential scenarios, and to make it even more complicated one has to consider that the brass plate carrying the ID number, the "holy grail" of all Bugattis, can be swapped within minutes only.
A very good example to demonstrate this problem is the monoplace car at the Mulhouse museum generally known as "51134" (see the other thread on this topic). The whole thing started with the T35B #4842, which was upgraded by Burggaller with a T51A engine which originated from vehicle #51134. Afaik the complete unit was swapped including the lower crankcase, so the car now was de facto "51134" althougg the brass ID plate may have shown still #4842. Completely independant from this car there was the T35C #4821 owned by Steinweg, who converted this car into a monoplace. It is assumed (not proven) that Steinweg took the absolete frame of a T37A - probably #37350 - and narrowed it by abt. 30 cm, and to this frame he assembled major components of #4821 like engine, gear box, axles, radiator etc. Whether he converted also the bodywork, or built a completely new one, is unknown.
Steinweg later bought 4842/51134 from Burggaller, removed the T51A engine, and mounted it into his monoplace, which now was a mix of 4821/37350(?)/51134 and possibly also 4842. Whether he put a brass ID plate to the bulkhead is neither known nor important, and if so he could choose at least between 4821 and 4842. And possibly also 37350 in case he bought the whole car for cannibalizing. Into the now engineless #4842 he put his T35C engine from #4821, and sold it.
You got the point?

The older a racing Bugatti was the more conversions and repairs took place, especially if such a car was actively raced even postwar. Nobody cared about originality, the task was simply to keep that machine running in the best possible way. Numerous cars had been scrapped and dismantled in the meantime, so there was still a constant flow of used spares available, and making 1 from 2 was a normal procedure (yes, later this turned the other way round, I know!).

Most of the Schlumpf Bugattis are from this period, and under this aspect one has to see the actual collection. Plus the fact that the Schlumpf brothers continued cannibalizing cars for making others running or at least displayable.


Attachments:
T37 Chassis 2.jpg
T37 Chassis 2.jpg [ 269.16 KiB | Viewed 5922 times ]


Last edited by Michael Müller on Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: 4923/4928
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:25 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 4:21 pm
Posts: 434
Location: Bergen NH (NL)
The registrations are proven fact
#4923 = 1974-NV
#4928 = 1975-NV

Fact is also that at the Targa Florio
Divo's car (#10) carried registration 1974-NV
Minoia's car (#36) carried registration 1975-NV

Also proven is that Stuber bought the Minoia car, as there are photos of him showing the car still with Minoia's name on it. The factory production/delivery book shows that this car on 5 June 1929 was delivered to Switzerland as #4923 with engine #191.
Fact also is that the other car was delivered to Jean de l’Espée on 18 May 1929 as #4928 with engine #179.

It is obvious that at a certain point a mistake has been made by the factory. Whether the stampings are correct but the documents wrong, or the other round, the result is the same. If you wash your hands it is impossible to specify whether your right hand is rubbing the left one, or the left one the right. Make your choice...


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