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 Post subject: Bugatti Type 5
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:00 pm 
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Location: Baden-Baden Germany
Hello,
Many people did ask me to show some fotos about theType 5 project. The foto shows the first time I did see the Type 5 engine at the De Dietrich castle in Reichshofen (Alsace).
And I got my first surprise , where are the spark plugs ?


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Bugatti Type 5 engine b.jpg
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Bugatti Type 5 engine a.jpg
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 Post subject: Re: Bugatti Type 5
PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:02 pm 
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Posts: 1041
Location: Baden-Baden Germany
original foto . Easy to see , the spark plugs are on top .


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 Post subject: Re: Bugatti Type 5
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:09 am 
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Joined: Wed May 12, 2004 4:26 pm
Posts: 2620
Location: Reeuwijk, The Netherlands
I guess the spark plugs are below the black wire that can be seen in the first photo. But did they use modern plugs? They must be small, as you cannot see them.

Or is it a diesel? :)

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 Post subject: Re: Bugatti Type 5
PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:15 pm 
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Location: Baden-Baden Germany
normal modern spark plugs , deep in a hole , so you can not see the spark plugs . No idea why they did change the original design ? De Dietrich did build many engines with the original Bugatti design for street and racing cars and had no problems with the ignition system . I like the idea about the diesel , but for a diesel you need high compression. This is a new build engine with 100% no compression at all ! I am getting differend storys who is responsible for this engine , but all I know, he should not build engines . I will dig aut some fotos we made and post them later .


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 Post subject: Re: Bugatti Type 5
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 11:26 pm 
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Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 3:17 am
Posts: 1041
Location: Baden-Baden Germany
the engine was at the De Dietrich Chateau in the Alsace . We started the engine with a 5 HP electric motor . You can see the motor at the right side , first foto . The electric motor was just able to turn the 13 liter engine . Some noise , some smoke , but not realy running . During the electric motor was turning the engine , I did open and close all the pet cocks , but the engine did not care about it at all . All People told me , it is a problem about the 13 liters and the 5 HP motor is not powerfull enaugh . Bugatti did not use a 5 HP electric motor in 1903 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I did remove the spark plugs , and there was no change , the electric motor still had a problem to turn the engine . So , absolut no compression ! I started to take the valves off . Surprise , the valve has 45° and the valve seat 55° ! The valve seat was made from bronze and was out off shape . I was able to look through . Up to 1 mm gap between valve and valve seat . But why was the 5 HP motor not able to turn the engine with a higher speed ? A very high mechanicale resistend with the crankshaft bearings and the valve train .


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 Post subject: Re: Bugatti Type 5
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 6:57 am 
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For the mechanically less gifted:

Once the spark plugs are gone, the engine should be turnable by hand, right?

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 Post subject: Re: Bugatti Type 5
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 7:48 am 
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Location: Netherlands, Nieuwegein
Udolahr wrote:
the engine was at the De Dietrich Chateau in the Alsace . We started the engine with a 5 HP electric motor . You can see the motor at the right side , first foto . The electric motor was just able to turn the 13 liter engine . Some noise , some smoke , but not realy running . During the electric motor was turning the engine , I did open and close all the pet cocks , but the engine did not care about it at all . All People told me , it is a problem about the 13 liters and the 5 HP motor is not powerfull enaugh . Bugatti did not use a 5 HP electric motor in 1903 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I did remove the spark plugs , and there was no change , the electric motor still had a problem to turn the engine . So , absolut no compression ! I started to take the valves off . Surprise , the valve has 45° and the valve seat 55° ! The valve seat was made from bronze and was out off shape . I was able to look through . Up to 1 mm gap between valve and valve seat . But why was the 5 HP motor not able to turn the engine with a higher speed ? A very high mechanicale resistend with the crankshaft bearings and the valve train .


Sounds like a problem with too small bearing diameter (or too big crankshaft). I have had something similar when rebuilding a Daimler (UK) engine about 20 years back; we had been sold the wrong diameter of bearings, and could not turn the crankshaft after mounting all the bearings.....

Our valves did fit though....

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 Post subject: Re: Bugatti Type 5
PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 1:19 pm 
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Location: Baden-Baden Germany
Thanks for your support ! With the spark plugs aut , it should be easy to turn the engine , but it made no difference .
The bearing diameter was not the real problem . The clerance was only in some spots to tight . All 3 main bearings had no side clearance . All 3 main bearings are machined to fit exact the crankshaft journals . No babbet , only bronce , and no oil groove . No hole to lubricate the center bearing . So I made neu bearings .


Last edited by Udolahr on Wed Apr 23, 2014 3:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Bugatti Type 5
PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 1:29 pm 
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Posts: 1041
Location: Baden-Baden Germany
turning the bronce bearing shell with 1000 rpm and the babbit inside . The centifugal force helps to get a wallthicknes about 4 mm .


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 Post subject: Re: Bugatti Type 5
PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 1:33 pm 
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Location: Baden-Baden Germany
new bearings are redy


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 Post subject: Re: Bugatti Type 5
PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 1:37 pm 
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Location: Vienne France
Udolahr wrote:
new bearings are redy

Proper job ! well done.


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 Post subject: Re: Bugatti Type 5
PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 6:00 pm 
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Looks neat! Let's hope it works. But at least another step towards a running engine.

About the radiator: It could have been lighter. However, wall thickness is not a major influence on heat dissipation. Getting a turbulent flow is important, and therefore speed of the liquid should actually be reduced. Also some sort of mixing device in the flow path is a good idea. Many cars use that today. (I dismantled some car radiators for another hobby I had in the past: watercooling computers)

You did have a fan on the radiator, did you? Air flow is important.

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 Post subject: Re: Bugatti Type 5
PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 12:15 am 
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Location: Baden-Baden Germany
Type 5 has no fan . I just had the engine running . After 3 minutes the engine is warm , you still can touch the cylinders and the radiator is cold . It is no water going through .
I have to build a new radiator .


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 Post subject: Re: Bugatti Type 5
PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 5:53 am 
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Location: Vienne France
Udolahr wrote:
Type 5 has no fan . I just had the engine running . After 3 minutes the engine is warm , you still can touch the cylinders and the radiator is cold . It is no water going through .
I have to build a new radiator .

You MUST have a FAN for running stationary ! Air MUST be going through the radiator to cool the fins ! When the car is moving the radiator might work.I would try that first.


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 Post subject: Re: Bugatti Type 5
PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 7:17 am 
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I dug up the text I have made on: "First aid at high temperatures". It is directed at computers, and very simple, but can be used for anything.

1. Als je proc warm is, en het blok ook, dan hebben die twee goed contact.
If processor is hot, and waterjacket as well, at least these to have good contact.
2. Als de proc warm is, maar het blok koel, zit het blok er niet goed op.
If processor is hot, but the waterjacket is cool, then there is no good contact (less important at cars, or the waterjacket should be poorly designed)
3. Als het blok warm is, en het water koel (afvoer), dan heb je een waardeloos blok.
If processor is hot, and water is cold, then the waterjacket is crap.
4. Als zowel de processor, het blok en het water (te) warm zijn, dan wijst het naar de radiator.
If processor, waterjacket and water is hot, then there is a problem with the radiator.
5. Als je achter en voor de radiator geen duidelijke luchtstroom voelt, zou je aan de fan moeten sleutelen, om efficiëntier de lucht door de radiator te bewegen.
If there is not airflow in front and behind the radiator, upgrade the fan.
6. Als de uitgaande lucht na de radiator niet beduidend warmer is dan de ingaande lucht, werkt je radiator niet helemaal lekker. Zie daarvoor het vorige punt, of neem een radiator met een groter contactoppervlak of van een ander metaal.
If the airflow is present, but does not feel warm, then the radiator is crap. Get a bigger one, and/or another material. (copper is best)
7. Als je achter de radiator veel warme lucht voelt stromen, maar het water blijft te warm, dan kan je radiator het niet meer aan. Probeer dan iets met punt 5 of het vorige punt.
If the airflow feels hot, but the water still is too warm, then the radiator has too little capacity. Try point 5 or 6.

For processor you can read engine as well.

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