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 Post subject: Argentina Bugatti
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:43 am 
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Location: Baden-Baden Germany
How good or bad are the Bugattis made in Argentina ?Has anybody some experience ?


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 Post subject: Re: Argentina Bugatti
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 7:04 am 
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Location: Vienne France
Udolahr wrote:
How good or bad are the Bugattis made in Argentina ?Has anybody some experience ?

sadly most of the people who own them have never had a real one so they dont know the difference.Tim Dutton told me that it cost over £20.000 to make one drivable.The individual parts that I have seen did not inspire confidence.


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 Post subject: Re: Argentina Bugatti
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 7:58 am 
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there seem to be many that get around angouleme ok..for several years..and even before the real ones....but who knows, I have neither...


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 Post subject: Re: Argentina Bugatti
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 8:27 am 
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Not that I can say much of it, but I was advised to buy the wheels for the Baby Bugatti that I have in Argentina, as they seem to make the best in terms of shape, size and finish. For other parts I heard the opposite.

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 Post subject: Re: Argentina Bugatti
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 10:18 am 
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davids wrote:
there seem to be many that get around angouleme ok..for several years..and even before the real ones....but who knows, I have neither...

"before the real ones? " LOL [ou MDR] I dont think the argentinians were making fake Bugatti's before the last war !


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 Post subject: Re: Argentina Bugatti
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 10:24 am 
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Herman wrote:
Not that I can say much of it, but I was advised to buy the wheels for the Baby Bugatti that I have in Argentina, as they seem to make the best in terms of shape, size and finish. For other parts I heard the opposite.

It should be remembered that Crosthwaite and Gardiner made their wheels over thirty years ago to fit AVAILABLE tyres,this was before the current craze for originality.It would not have been sensible to make wheels for a tyre size that was completely unavailable.Nor was the production of new tyres considered worthwhile.This is why the english wheels [mine included as I have made 37 Babys] are not accurate.


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 Post subject: Re: Argentina Bugatti
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 10:27 am 
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intended to read that in the racing they get around the circuit before/ in front of the real ones...probably because it might not matter quite as importantly if they crash or pop things that are irreplacable and expensive.
sorry, slightly ambiguouse...
What are the cost differences between Argentine ones and Dutton, Crosswaite etc ..?


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 Post subject: Re: Argentina Bugatti
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 11:33 am 
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davids wrote:
intended to read that in the racing they get around the circuit before/ in front of the real ones...probably because it might not matter quite as importantly if they crash or pop things that are irreplacable and expensive.
sorry, slightly ambiguouse...
What are the cost differences between Argentine ones and Dutton, Crosswaite etc ..?

I am afraid that you are still not quite accurate/correct etc.My old T35B won at Angouleme two years ago.There was not one single piece of argentinian bugatti in my old car.[most was from Molsheim].British driver of course,who knows that when something breaks you repair it.Bugatti's are racing cars for racing.


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 Post subject: Re: Argentina Bugatti
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 11:59 am 
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Location: Baden-Baden Germany
One Argentina car just broke the drive shaft . The guy was lucky , he just started driving ,so the drive shaft broke with very low speed . The Argentina drive shaft was smaller in diameter compare to the original . And a metal test did show , the shaft has only 60 kg to the mm² . I call this dangeres .
I had a steering box in my hands , made in Argentina . The wurm gear and the wurm are not ready machined . The wurm was only able to go maybe 1mm deep in to the wurm geer and made some damage .
If you brake hard the front axle twist with the wheel .
How good is the original ?
The list with broken Argentina parts is long , I just mention some examples .


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 Post subject: Re: Argentina Bugatti
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 5:45 pm 
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Udolahr wrote:
How good or bad are the Bugattis made in Argentina ?Has anybody some experience ?


Please be aware that the PS factory of Mr. Anadon does not produce Bugatti's but Look-a-likes.
Bugwrench


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 Post subject: Re: Argentina Bugatti
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:30 am 
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Lazarus wrote:
Udolahr wrote:
How good or bad are the Bugattis made in Argentina ?Has anybody some experience ?

sadly most of the people who own them have never had a real one so they dont know the difference.Tim Dutton told me that it cost over £20.000 to make one drivable.The individual parts that I have seen did not inspire confidence.



1. I'd like to know how £20.000 pounds on a finished replica would be spent on an AR car to make it drivable? Anyone like a share a fact sheet on what you need to do?

2. An original Bugatti is a unique and historical piece, like a Stradivarius - originals are in the multi-millions now, so not many can be used in hard racing freely . Those on the track are , for the most part, racing with replica parts. The quality of those parts are MORE or less than visual , often enough. There is an interesting article on Wiki comparing Stradivarius violins, it compares the replicas made throughout the ages and the test made on the replicas, good comparsions. All Bugatti replica's will be judged nearly the same way. Not many people will be able to drive both, let alone race both. I had an original chassis built by a TOP Bugattist, with the best parts new parts. The end result was a car that felt like a replica, something in it's soul was missing - I can't explain it. On the other hand I owned an Eric Koux Bugatti , 100% replica and well used - and it drove like magic! It may well come down to use and correcting the problems as you go. It would be good to hear from the Bugattist here WHY Argentine cars are knocked so hard - not general assumptions, but in engineering facts. Just some thoughts for the week.... :idea:

Photo of a Pur Sang AR Engine


Attachments:
File comment: Argentine Bugatti Engine
_MG_1356.jpg
_MG_1356.jpg [ 591.66 KiB | Viewed 11058 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Argentina Bugatti
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 11:51 am 
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Location: Vienne France
1. I'd like to know how £20.000 pounds on a finished replica would be spent on an AR car to make it drivable? Anyone like a share a fact sheet on what you need to do?

facts. Just some thoughts for the week.... :idea:

Photo of a Pur Sang AR Engine[/quote]
Thank you for sharing this very educational photo with us,Just a quick look reveals the following,The exhausts are quite dreadful and are the first PS parts that I ever saw at Beaulieu many years ago.They have copied an original with many welded repairs rather than the beautiful elegant original,The brass screw in the water pump should not be domed,the water pump greaser should not have a brass cap but steel.The oil pump is quite extraordinary,the ball and spring for the starting handle should not have a square headed bolt,I cannot see evidence of the pins that should lock the idler gear shafts in the blower drive,the breathers look very odd,are they steel fabrications? the oil filter could be a necessary evil,but evil it is.the bolts on the oil feeds to the front timing cover should be hexagonal not square,should not the bronze housing on the front have 5mm studs and nuts and not bolts? the nuts on the blower drive coupling should be castle with splitpins.This is at first glance,but an expert could no doubt find much more.What makes a Bugatti ? Does it matter where it is made? probably not,but a Bugatti is HOW it is made.This is not HOW it is made.


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 Post subject: Re: Argentina Bugatti
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 12:13 pm 
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Posts: 247
Ive read a road test of an argentinian T35 sometime ago in "the automobile". It read quite good for it, so a drive in it can`t be terrible or pared with enourmerous costs. I think it`s better for people, who can`t effort a real GP-bug , to buy an argentinian one for much less money ,than to buy one of those "bitsas" ;made all over the world during the last 6o years with faked numbers and wrong authentity.
not many in the world have the chance/luck like you john, beeing able to make a passion to profession for lifetime.

regards
mike

PS: john, there are a lot of other original steamers left, predating the 1888 marcus:
de dions, amedee bollees, borodinos etc. the marcus was never restored and made only driveable in the early 5o`s , but it`s heavy motor made further driving atempts
too much a risk for the wooden chassis.


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 Post subject: Re: Argentina Bugatti
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 12:17 pm 
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Further AR photos.


Attachments:
File comment: AR engine
DSC07503.JPG
DSC07503.JPG [ 852.6 KiB | Viewed 11042 times ]
File comment: AR engine
_MG_1458.jpg
_MG_1458.jpg [ 629.32 KiB | Viewed 11042 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Argentina Bugatti Photos
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 12:33 pm 
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Posts: 84
The photos above are for review. For years I have not fully understood why something copied can not be done precisely when all the drawings and originals are available for examination. It can cost no more to be precise in coping. It's obvious if parts used in coping are not correct , all are easy to compare to a Bugatti drawing. Comments on what we see is purely constructive in nature. Any copy should be as authentic as possible for the stake of the marque, it's no different in theory than installing a replica part on an original. If it's not right, it won't do - :|

On a secondary note, I raced against a few Argentine cars and they were as good as the drivers in handling the track, at full speed. That was 10 years ago, so I wonder how far they have come in those 10 years.


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