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 Post subject: What do Bugatti owners think of the Pur Sang replicas
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 4:19 pm 
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An interesting discussion, which is picked up from Facebook: What do Bugatti owners think of the Pur Sang replicas? :)

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 Post subject: Re: What do Bugatti owners think of the Pur Sang replicas
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 6:23 pm 
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Herman wrote:
An interesting discussion, which is picked up from Facebook: What do Bugatti owners think of the Pur Sang replicas? :)

They have done a lot of damage to the Bugatti world.I rather wish that there were a legal way to register them to use on the road.Then the owners would not have to invent original numbers from long lost real cars and claim these numbers to get documents with 1927 or 1928 etc on them.It may not have occured to many people but it is COMPLETELY impossible to register these cars legally for use on the road.There are NO exceptions to homologation,and PS never provided a car for testing.Also as the DREAL confirmed last week,NO PS has ever passed single vehicle Type Approval.Well they couldn't pass could they? No 2010 car would pass type approval with a steel handle swinging around on the front,or with steel chassis members sticking out to hack down pedestrians.no "E" marked lights,seatbelts,hazard flashers,collapsable steering column etc etc Put simply Bugatti's can only pass type approval if they actually are 1928 etc.There is not ONE french logbook with PS as the type of car with a date of 2012 or whatever.It should be bourne in mind that the french logbook is a legal document giving title to the person named within.[english logbooks are not] This gives "proof of ownership" and all submissions made to gain this french logbook are legally binding.It is therefore a criminal act to falsify the information in order to get a french logbook.The car could be seized and the guilty person taken to court. Furthermore,as you need to take your logbook to the garage when you get a control technique [ as the cars are checked relative to their date of manufacture] taking a 2012 PS with a logbook saying 1927 Bugatti means that you are breaking the law again,and as the logbook has been aquired by illegal means it is invalid,which invalidates the control technique and I suspect the insurance as well.So there it is.If you see a PS on the road in france,with french number plates fitted,you now know that it has no legal logbook,no valid control technique,and probably no insurance [ avoid getting run over as he may not be able to claim for damage to your leg] I really would like to see these cars get a legal logbook,marked Type of car PS.model type 35,date of manufacture 2012, perhaps with a mileage limitation of 1500 miles per year.I don't think that a couple of hundred PS cars are going to stop the world turning.I noticed tonight that COYs have removed the comment about "french regstration document" from the info on the PS in their Monaco auction.Someone must have tipped them the wink.


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 Post subject: Re: What do Bugatti owners think of the Pur Sang replicas
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 6:35 pm 
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" They have done a lot of damage to the Bugatti world " !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: What do Bugatti owners think of the Pur Sang replicas
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 6:36 pm 
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Udolahr wrote:
" They have done a lot of damage to the Bugatti world " !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes UDO that is exactly what I said.And YOUR point is?


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 Post subject: Re: What do Bugatti owners think of the Pur Sang replicas
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 6:39 pm 
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you are right 100%


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 Post subject: Re: What do Bugatti owners think of the Pur Sang replicas
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 6:51 pm 
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Udolahr wrote:
you are right 100%

Thank you Udo.I wonder what we would feel today if Ivan Dutton had made them as he intended to do twenty years ago? Conway stopped him.I wonder if we would feel the same if they were absolutely beautifully made with no mistakes at all and with approval from the Bugatti family ? And I wonder what we would feel if they were made in Molsheim instead of Argentina?


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 Post subject: Re: What do Bugatti owners think of the Pur Sang replicas
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 7:06 pm 
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Made in Molsheim , and the Bugatti emblem in black not in red is better . But mass production in Argentina and if I go to the Bugatti festival 90% is PS , is too much


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 Post subject: Re: What do Bugatti owners think of the Pur Sang replicas
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 3:44 pm 
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I recall, John, the conversation but sadly not the detail regarding an Argentinian engine you saw at Retromobile years ago and were somewhat horrified at. I'm pleased to see that your opinion hasn't changed. As someone who has not studied the detailed differences between the Molsheim and the Argentinian cars there are clearly (judging by the amount of 'heat' generated by the subject) many differences in construction and materials (wheels I believe being but one area). So for my benefit and dare I suggest, others who are lacking in this fascinating detail knowledge, would it be possible to summarise the main areas of disquiet? You are absolutely correct too in posing the question as to the reaction if 'replicas' were built at Molsheim with family blessing. Regarding the proposed production (presumably of Type 35s) some time ago by Messrs. Ivan Dutton - I have been labouring under the delusion that since that time cars have been built by them - or are they '3 out of 5' constructions which presumably don't count? Personally the finest replica I've ever seen (based upon my admittedly flimsy knowledge) is a Type 35C fabricated almost (well probably 90%) entirely by one man...it looked and sounded superb. But what do I know? I have the distinct feeling that before too long there will be more 35s running than ever left Molsheim...where do they get the numbers?


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 Post subject: Re: What do Bugatti owners think of the Pur Sang replicas
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 5:02 pm 
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Numbers are not the problem. There are several numbers that are used twice or even 3 times.

But what ARE the differences between a PS and a Bugatti?

-throw arrangment
-ignition
-tap cluster for fuel pressure
....

(please add and correct)

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 Post subject: Re: What do Bugatti owners think of the Pur Sang replicas
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 6:14 pm 
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If one were to add to a PS....3 of 5 -perhaps gearbox/front axle/ rear axle and a bosch magneto or etc,,,where would that put it compared to some 3/5 that were put together some years ago by real enthusiasts taking one apart to make two ???...

and Herman-roller crank
although ps will build one with a roller crank -but at a price ! no doubt less than Dutton or C.G...no doubt less in quality also ?


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 Post subject: Re: What do Bugatti owners think of the Pur Sang replicas
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 7:03 pm 
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Herman wrote:
Numbers are not the problem. There are several numbers that are used twice or even 3 times.

But what ARE the differences between a PS and a Bugatti?

-throw arrangment
-ignition
-tap cluster for fuel pressure
....

(please add and correct)

my own personal bugbear is the dreadful fitting of a chrome surround to the gearlever hole on the outside of the body.Many american restorations have this as well.It looks terrible and is wrong.The hole should not be square also.Bugatti had an eye for line which is why we all admire his work.He would never have done this.


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 Post subject: Re: What do Bugatti owners think of the Pur Sang replicas
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 7:09 pm 
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Jon Dudley wrote:
I recall, John, the conversation but sadly not the detail regarding an Argentinian engine you saw at Retromobile years ago and were somewhat horrified at. I'm pleased to see that your opinion hasn't changed. As someone who has not studied the detailed differences between the Molsheim and the Argentinian cars there are clearly (judging by the amount of 'heat' generated by the subject) many differences in construction and materials (wheels I believe being but one area). So for my benefit and dare I suggest, others who are lacking in this fascinating detail knowledge, would it be possible to summarise the main areas of disquiet? You are absolutely correct too in posing the question as to the reaction if 'replicas' were built at Molsheim with family blessing. Regarding the proposed production (presumably of Type 35s) some time ago by Messrs. Ivan Dutton - I have been labouring under the delusion that since that time cars have been built by them - or are they '3 out of 5' constructions which presumably don't count? Personally the finest replica I've ever seen (based upon my admittedly flimsy knowledge) is a Type 35C fabricated almost (well probably 90%) entirely by one man...it looked and sounded superb. But what do I know? I have the distinct feeling that before too long there will be more 35s running than ever left Molsheim...where do they get the numbers?

Hi Jon,yes I mentioned that the argie engine on display had a plastic gas tap for the water pump ! [as well as hacksaw cut studs holding the cambox down] I was quite unable to get the owner of the company to understand that if dreadful things are visible on the OUTSIDE people may wonder what is going on INSIDE.His comment about the gas tap was that the brass ones could be supplied also for people who wanted them ! I would have thought that it would be better to have a fabulous engine on display to advertise your skill.


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 Post subject: Re: What do Bugatti owners think of the Pur Sang replicas
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 8:04 pm 
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you may all be aware of the proposed move to allow FFVE to grant approval to replica vehicles-with the now permanent numberplate in france showing R as replica or recreation or ...etc.being built to the same/similar specification..[here we go]
of all types of old marque of vehicle-
would that apease the purist....?
there would then be no doubt of origins
It would show non original status, probably real age of build and cover all Lazarus' comments re insurance , legal issues and 2012 CG.
is it possible to get approval for this?
would it solve the obvious problems people have...

and there would then be an open market in copies....????


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 Post subject: Re: What do Bugatti owners think of the Pur Sang replicas
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 9:02 pm 
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Interesting, very interesting. I guess the problem seems so large now, that something is being done...

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 Post subject: Re: What do Bugatti owners think of the Pur Sang replicas
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 7:35 am 
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If an original T35B costs you well over a million, it is logical for those of us who are not billionairs, to try some cheaper solution to have some Bugatti driving fun...

One can buy a T40, not the same as a T35B.

One can build one's own, but this needs a lot of knowledge and time and skill which most people lack at least two of. In the end one still wouldn't have an original T35B.

One can buy a reproduction, not the same as an original, but still with 95% of the driving fun.

One can buy a VW-based replica, not the same fun, but 75% of the innocent standers-by and lookers-on will admire your classic. Certainly not the same as an original....

Which one to chose, is very personal. However, one should be honest about what the automobile is....


Many people have a reproduction "scream" by Edvard Munch hanging on the wall, and still enjoy it. Others put on a similar face when they see one of the Argentinian PS's.

Image


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