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 Post subject: Re: FIOD pakt handelaar in namaak oldtimers op
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:06 am 
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On top of that the authorities created a grey area themselves as well:

If you own for instance a 2CV, and want to restore it, the authorities accept the use of a new frame, to simplify restauration. If they accept that for 2CVs, they should also accept that for Bugattis.

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 Post subject: Re: FIOD pakt handelaar in namaak oldtimers op
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:10 am 
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Herman wrote:
On top of that the authorities created a grey area themselves as well:

If you own for instance a 2CV, and want to restore it, the authorities accept the use of a new frame, to simplify restauration. If they accept that for 2CVs, they should also accept that for Bugattis.

Thats fine IF you have a 2cv to start with ! How many Bugatti owners with REAL chassis are going to fit a new one ?


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 Post subject: Re: FIOD pakt handelaar in namaak oldtimers op
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:40 am 
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Who is checking that?

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 Post subject: Re: FIOD pakt handelaar in namaak oldtimers op
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:41 pm 
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Herman, sorry, but you missed the point. The topic is "import of replicas from outside the EU" in combination with tax fraud, with special consideration of the fact that such fraud is not (only) performed to save duties and VAT, but mainly to get the car road-registered.

This problem is not existing when a Bugatti replica is built within the EU, so the people who started building "Bugattis" in some Eastern EU countries know quite well what they are doing. I don't think that the pampa imports will dry out, but exports to Europe will drop considerably and the prices will move up. Future demand then will be covered mainly from these new sources.

I don't want to start a new discussion about the definition of a "replica" or a "recreation" or however these cars are named, but as a matter of fact a professionally made replica is accepted by the registration authorities as "restored" original. With some exceptions...
- the chassis numer is existing already
- the car is legally declared as new (actual case about tax fraud)
- the car is declared as fake by an authorized party (in general the original manufacturer)

There is no legal definition of a "restoration", principally all parts can be exhanged against new ones. So if in your 2CV example not only the frame is exchanged, but also ALL other parts, which de facto means the assembly of a complete new car, then this is legally accepted under two conditions
- the original part carrying the serial number, thus normally the old frame, must be destroyed under authorities witness,
- the safety standard of the new parts, and especially that of the new frame, must be equivalent to that of the original parts.
This is at least the theory, practice of course of something different...


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 Post subject: Re: FIOD pakt handelaar in namaak oldtimers op
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:17 pm 
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Easy enough to buy the car disassembled (and even "disassembled" is a stretchable term), and if you want to obscure things you can even send the parts scattered over Europe, and thus buy them from Europe, and from different sources.

On road registering a replica, without branding it a replica: They did not succeed with the Dutch built Royale...

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 Post subject: Re: FIOD pakt handelaar in namaak oldtimers op
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:47 pm 
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Herman wrote:
They did not succeed with the Dutch built Royale...

Not surprising - which serial number did they use...? :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: FIOD pakt handelaar in namaak oldtimers op
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:03 pm 
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For what I know they tried 41100 which is a bit stupid. I also understood that they were offered a registration "replica" which was refused.

Even that would be interesting.

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 Post subject: Re: FIOD pakt handelaar in namaak oldtimers op
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:00 am 
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Yes , this is stupid :lol:
It will be interesting to see what happens in Holland in the future with PS cars . And will it go over to the neighbors .


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 Post subject: Re: FIOD pakt handelaar in namaak oldtimers op
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:28 am 
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Don't know much do you Herman.


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 Post subject: Re: FIOD pakt handelaar in namaak oldtimers op
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:49 am 
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Quote:
...the general customs import duty for automobiles is 10 % plus VAT on car/freight/import duty (in NL e.g. 21 %). Antique and also most classic cars are handled by the customs tariff as "collectibles / art" with a reduced duty - I believe 6 % or so - and with no VAT applicable! So every replica imported as "original" represents a tax fraud of abt. 25 %, or in case of a PS abt. € 40.000.

Sorry, I made a mistake. It's not reduced duty and waived VAT, but the other way round. So duty-free and 6 % VAT only, with the overall result being roughly the same.


Ooops, I tried to quote myself by now my orginal posting of 9 April has not been quoted but edited. Is there any way to restore it...?


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 Post subject: Re: FIOD pakt handelaar in namaak oldtimers op
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 3:51 pm 
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Greg Morgan wrote:
Don't know much do you Herman.


No. Do you? Speak up.

To Michael: Unfortunately there is no "undo" function on the forum (unlike the WIKIs)

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 Post subject: Re: FIOD pakt handelaar in namaak oldtimers op
PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 7:02 pm 
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I posted a comment to the PreWar article, which is similar than my accidently deleted posting here.:

Quote:
This kettle was on the fire since long already, but finally it boiled and whistled now! The topic here is not "replicas in general", but those imported from outside the EU. For applying road registration for an imported car (purchase from another EU country is no import!) one has to present the custom clearing document, this is standard procedure in order to prove that duties and taxes had been paid. If replicas are imported correctly as new cars - which in fact they are - the road registration will be refused because these cars do not comply with the actual safety and environmental legislation for automobiles. So to have an imported replica road registered it MUST be imported as antique respectively classic car, meaning as an original. But exactly that is the problem, new cars are subject to 10 % import duty plus the valid VAT in the country of import (e.g. 21 % in NL, 19 % in D). But old cars (the definition is complicated and differs by country) are classified as collector items or artwork, they are imported with zero import duty and reduced VAT (e.g. 6 %). Importing a replica as original period built car is simply tax fraud, because abt. 25 % - or when talking about a "Pampa Bugatti" abt. € 40.000 - are evaded from the fiscal authorities.

This problem is well known since years, but it has always been downplayed. Some years ago a large German classic car magazine describes such behaviour as "Schummelei" (trickery), and "man besorgt sich eine alte Original-Chassisnummer" (obtaining an old original chassis no.). Trivializing something which in fact is clearly fraud! Another magazine wrote “streng genommen handelt es sich um ein Neufahrzeug” (strictly speaking such car will be a new vehicle", and "Zulassungsversu che dürften daher meist chancenlos bleiben” (registration attempts therefore will be mostly unsuccessful). "Strictly speaking" and "mostly"...?

The legal situation is absolutely clear, a replica is a new vehicle, and as such it is not permissable for road registration as it does not comply with the technical legislation. The reversal consequently is that all road registered replicas have achieved such registration fraudulently. And in case of imported cars even by committing tax fraud.

However, who is blamable for the tax fraud? Juridically a difficult question, but in first instance the party who officially performed the import procedure. But if this party can claim that the exporter sold them an original restored car...? Complicated stuff for lawyers and attorneys. But one thing is clear without any doubt - anybody who buys a "Pampa Bugatti" knows quite well that for such money he NEVER can have an original!

It can be expected that from now on it will be much more difficult to import South American replicas, but there are still ways and channels. But it can be also expected that such market gap soon will be filled with supplies from some eastern EU member states, where reportedly the "Bugatti production" is already in full swing.


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