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 Post subject: Johan.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:30 pm 
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Is Johan happy that his "colourful" descriptions of fellow members as, for example, "vermin" won't damage the reputation of this website.

I seem to remember use of the word "whore" in connection with a lady now in her eighties. Is this the way to win hearts and minds in the BOC and the Bugatti Trust whose co-operation is needed if the site is to become really authorative ?

To me, and many others, the website is the best thing that has happened in the world of Bugatti since the last work's victory in the Bois de Boulougne.

I'm worried about the possibility of legal action and the site being closed.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:59 pm 
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Location: Port Elizabeth; South Africa
The solution is simple : Herman could simply ban me. I grew up in police-state so I understand very well that freedom of speech is a fundamental right. But belonging to Bugattibuilder.com is not. Do what you must.

Yours
Johan Buchner.

PS. I never called Ettore's second wife a whore; I merely suggested that viewing her as a home wrecking whore was one possibility, the other is seeing her as an innocent victim of a dirty old man who deserted his dying wife to indulge his lust.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 2:34 pm 
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What can I say?

For the legal part, this site is covered by a disclaimer, which has the following subsection:

Quote:
You expressly acknowledge and agree that Bugattibuilder.com does not control other users of this website or the providers of information or ideas to this website and Bugattibuilder.como is therefore not liable for their opinions or their behaviour, including any information or advice provided by them or any defamatory statements made by them or any offensive conduct on their part.


Your nick implies you have far greater knowledge on legal stuff than I do, so feel free to make comments which could improve the disclaimer. (preferably without becoming unreadable)

I am very happy with the increased use of the site, which actually was only seen after some "spicy" comments produced by Johan, who seemed to have triggered quite some other visitors to actually contribute.

However, Johan sometimes tends to walk the fine line between what is acceptable, and what is not. I do sometimes try and steer him, but I understand people might sometimes be offended by his writing. As long as we all keep communicating I do not feel that this is a problem at the moment. There is room for everyone.

Also, on the psycho-social side of things, I have noticed a development with many forum members (Johan, but also others) which caused the seperate members to grow together, and have more understanding among them. However, this can also be my background. (being Dutch, that is, a tradition of being able to adapt to different cultures and habits).

And also on the personal side of Johan I have seen developments. Remember he comes from a background where he was not understood, and entered a world where he is understood.

So basicly not a post to defend Johan or anyone else, but a post to keep communicating. Suggestion: Let's talk it over in person, in 2009, when Johan is in the UK.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 3:15 pm 
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Splendid idea! See you in 2009.


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 Post subject: Re: Johan.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 6:46 pm 
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Legaleagle wrote:
I seem to remember use of the word "whore" in connection with a lady now in her eighties. Is this the way to win hearts and minds in the BOC and the Bugatti Trust whose co-operation is needed if the site is to become really authorative ?


I (this means what I am going to say is my personal opinion) don't think this website needs or should have the co-operation of the BOC and Bugatti Trust. This website and forum, started by Herman, are an independent medium with no ties to any official organisation. (Herman, correct me if I am wrong)

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against the BOC and Bugatti Trust as organisations (although I don't agree with some of their actions). Like Herman says, Johan is sometimes on or maybe sometimes just over the fine line.
As long as everyone respects each other and other opinions, everything is fine.

Regards, Jeroen

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 Post subject: Vermin
PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:41 pm 
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I don't think that calling people who have a different approach to restoration "vermin" constitutes showing respect to fellow human beings.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:42 pm 
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I overstep the line? Et tu Jeroen? You must remember I am a white Afrikaner, the people who thought Apartheid was a good thing. We are a crude and barbaric bunch of thick-skinned Neanderthals. Trust me, the fact that I am almost literate represents a minor miracle. Anyway, enough about me.

Jeroen, while I am in full agreement with you about the independence of Bugattibuilder.com, I do feel it important that individual members of The Bugatti Trust and B.O.C. not be made to feel alienated. More contributors with new and varied opinions is the very life-blood of this forum. Speaking only for myself, I learn most from those who hold very different opinions to myself.

I appreciate Legaleagle having enough conviction to publicly criticize me. I am a passionate man, with a deep, occasionally very dark and broiling love for Ettore Bugatti, his people, his times, but mostly, his cars. Because of this, I respond very well to those who hold equally strong views. That these passions may differ wildly from my own, is totally irrelevant. On Bugattibuilder.com there is but one crime, to be boring. Now if Legaleagle wants to truly draw blood, all he has to do is call me boring. That might just kill me.

Let me leave you with an example of how my own point of view has changed : when I joined this forum, I loathed the B.O.C. and all who sailed in her. But one thing I have learned about the B.O.C. (the same applies to all British Bugattists, by the way.), nobody tells them what to do. I rather like their absolute refusal to neither conform nor yield to popular opinion. Stubborn, infuriating and elitist, yes, but utterly magnificent because of it. The world need people like this, just as we need all other personality types. It adds interest.

I overstep the line? Honestly!

I remain
Johan


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:48 pm 
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Johan, I agree with you on BOC and Trust members. What you write is what I meant. They are all welcome here as far as I'm concerned. Everyone has the right to their own opinion.

What I meant by disagreeing with the BOC and the Trust is e.g. BC128. In my opinion that is a hotrod and not a Bugatti, and should never have received a BC identification plate.

I agree with you on the Lauren cars. The guy doesn't earn respect by desacrating European cultural history. Painting historicaly important cars like the Atlantic and T59 black is not right. He should use his designerish ideas on his business and not on these cars.

Regards, Jeroen

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 9:33 pm 
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For me, everyone is welcome on this forum. I am not affiliated to any Bugatti organisation, I am even not a member of any of the Bugatti clubs, actually. (this might change in the future, to assure a better flow of information)

This site is totally independant, and I would like to keep it that way. I feel it is a strong point of the site. There is room for everyone. (purists, racers, groupies, authors, restorers, Bugatti CEO's, , french, british, americans, etc. etc.)

If anyone is offended, please let the author know. There is always a way to figure things out.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 7:27 am 
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Honestly, Johan sometimes goes way over the line. Criticising people is Ok, but insulting them is something that I would not like to see, not on a forum or anywhere else.

It sounds nice in the beginning, and you get a lot of reactions, but in the end your true message is forgotten and the insult is remembered. This of course will make future communications go much more difficult.

I saw people being banned from fora for less! People on this forum have gotten used to you, they are possibly a special breed of Bugattiste, with extra-thick skin!

On the other hand, I never ever insulted the owner of the Bugatti Empereur, and still he doesn't want to talk to me anymore.....

Sometimes the truth can hurt more than any insult, so stick to the truth, that's often bad enough!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 7:43 am 
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Johan sent me a long E-mail, and he sees the problem, and will better his life. This is the sort of development I mentioned earlier.
We are all new on this new community, and we all learn from each other.

For me it is "case closed" now, although I still hope for a reaction of Legaleagle on this post.

And for the Empereur. Do not worry, Jaap. He does not seem to like me anymore as well. This car will pop-up one day, and at least we get to see some photos in daylight. Or it will forever be buried in some shed. A new "Sleeping Beauty" ?? :lol:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 8:44 am 
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Sleeping possibly, but beauty???

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 1:26 pm 
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We don't know, Jaap. Perhaps it is a beautiful car. Perhaps not a Bugatti, but perhaps a beautiful car...

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