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 Post subject: A slight change of emphasis.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 12:15 pm 
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Location: Port Elizabeth; South Africa
Dear Friends

The great American journalist Henry Manney III penned the immortal line : "I know of at least 9 Ferrari Le Mans winners and 3 ex-Appleyard Jaguars, all owned by doctors."

Within the Bugatti community I am sure some of you will have heard something like this : "I don't care what those bastards in the BOC says, my research has indicated that my car was used by Elizabeth Junek to win the Targa Florio in 26, 27 and 28, before the factory upgraded her to T51 spec and then Chiron used her to win Monaco 4 years in a row. Lovely patina don't you think?" Indeed.

Owners claiming great racing glory for their cars is as much part of the old car hobby as inflated prices. I agree with Jaap, endless bickering about what constitutes original and replica respectively, will make this forum rather boring, don't you think. In the WIKI there is an entry for a T57S claiming to be car 57492. Owned by Peter Mullin this car is indicated as lost by both Laugier and Simon, but perhaps Mr. Mullin does not, in fact, claim this to be 57492. The person who made the WIKI entry could be mistaken, after all.

But let us say, for argument's sake, that a dark blue T57S Roadster 57492 does appear on the market, well, then we do an impersonation of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, led by Michael Muller, and expose this heinous crime in a blazing outpouring of righteous indignation. That will be fun. And let us keep our anger for actual criminal activities, besides, how boring would this world be without a few eccentric rogues?

Williamswinner's reply to my book debacle got me thinking : Certainly there has been times, gone forever now, when Bugattis were somewhat affordable, but am I correct in believing that Bugattis has never been cheap?

Finally : Jaap I love the work you are doing on the plane, but whatever you and your group do, do not ever build a flying replica. Why? Simple ; two, I repeat, two T50B engines and two prop shafts, one on either side of the pilot, and it is made from balsawood. Balsawood??!!! A balsa wood fuselage + 2 x T50B engines = disaster!!!!! Don't do it Jaap, you are to young to die. Besides, what will happen to The Bugatti Page?

Anyway, that's my two pennies worth.

Kind Regards
Johan Buchner


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 Post subject: Car 57492 - Real or Fake ?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 2:14 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:51 pm
Posts: 119
Could the 57S listed on wiki under this number be the car built up by Crosthwaite and Gardiner for J. Coombs and said to be based on a modified type 57 frame from car 57367 with engine 272.

They look very similar to me.

The car was the subject of an article in "Classic and Sportscar" in August, 1997 (p.21).


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 Post subject: Re: A slight change of emphasis.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:32 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 4:21 pm
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Location: Bergen NH (NL)
Johan Buchner wrote:
Certainly there has been times, gone forever now, when Bugattis were somewhat affordable, but am I correct in believing that Bugattis has never been cheap?

:D
It seems that you do not have Antoine Raffaelli's book "Memoirs of a Bugatti hunter"....!
You change constantly between laughing and crying....


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 9:39 pm 
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You know Michael, I keep hearing about this book; this gentleman sure seems interesting. Would you recommend his memoirs?

One more, actually, two more questions : When was the last time a significant Bugatti, thought lost, was discovered, dusty and scruffy, but complete? The last one I remember was the Hani bodied T37.

Why, oh why, oh why, did Neil Corner sell 59123? To Korea? Why couldn't he just shoot me, it would hurt so much less. No please, don't tell me; whither T57S & T55 too? Dear God, is nothing sacred anymore?

Neil Corner selling his Bugattis? This is the end, I tell you. Western Civilisation will fall. To be replaced by Korea? Korea??!!!

Farewell cruel world!

Johan has left the forum.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 10:43 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 8:41 pm
Posts: 19
Location: Chile
I believe, it's Chairman Lee, from Samsung.
He do no harm to the Cars, cause he put them in a store and never shows them up. In the 90th he bought Neil Corners Auto Union Type D.
He couldn't export it from Germany, but he can't import old Cars to Corea. The Au is stored in a Warehouse, in the near of Frankfurth Airport and was never seen in public again.
So try to find nice pictures and keep her in memory
Regards
Jörg


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:24 am 
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Location: Bergen NH (NL)
Johan Buchner wrote:
Would you recommend his memoirs?

Absolutely!
Tons of phantastic photos plus period documents like invoices, registration documents, etc.
And phantastic stories from the 50's and 60's when Raffaelli hunted and found Grand Prix Bugattis and other historic cars.
A T35C for 600 Francs, about 150 $ in 1958...? Start weeping!
Or a Mercedes SSK for 250 Francs only. But young Antoine came too late, because it took him 3 months to borrow together the money from family and school friends - the SSK was cut into pieces and scrapped meanwhile. Weep even more...

Directly from the publisher:
http://www.maeght.com/editions/article. ... ti&id=1130
€ 36 is a real bargain, but p&p to South Africa is another €40.


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 Post subject: Chairman Lee.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 1:32 am 
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Posts: 109
Much better a grubby "Brescia" in the garage at the bottom of my garden than an immacultate Auto-Union in a souless warehouse thousands of miles away from home ??

The Coombs 57S fake is not the same car as the Peter Mullin 57S fake.

The list of type 57 chassis nos. in Barrrie Price's book is full of inaccuracies. As is his book about the type 44.


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 Post subject: Memoirs of a Bugatti Hunter, Rafaelli.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 1:36 am 
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Our South African friend John won't appreciate it, but a picture of Helle-Nice with her knickers off makes the book worth every cent of the cover price.


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 Post subject: Re: A slight change of emphasis.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 9:18 am 
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Location: Netherlands, Nieuwegein
Johan Buchner wrote:
Finally : Jaap I love the work you are doing on the plane, but whatever you and your group do, do not ever build a flying replica. Why? Simple ; two, I repeat, two T50B engines and two prop shafts, one on either side of the pilot, and it is made from balsawood. Balsawood??!!! A balsa wood fuselage + 2 x T50B engines = disaster!!!!! Don't do it Jaap, you are to young to die. Besides, what will happen to The Bugatti Page?


Well, the airplane was not exactly made out of balsa wood, that was used as a filler only, to make a light sandwich structure with strong outside layers. The airplane would not shred to pieces directly after firing up the two T50B engines (quoted by de Monge at 500HP each for a short run).

However, plans are first for a replica made of carbon fibre reinforced epoxy, probably starting with less engine power (below 250hp is much easier to get an airplane certified. This will give us a good idea however, of the flight characteristics of the 100P airplane.

Later we may build a real 1:1 replica, using wood, and an engine from Martin Dean's T59, and the other one from Ray Jones's T57S45 (which are the original engines). I doubt it if we can aquire the 3rd original engine known from the Schlumpf museum.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 9:35 am 
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I have the 2nd issue of Super Car Classics in which Steady Barker tested the Charles Dean T59, and he mentioned the engine being one of the original aeroplane's. If memory serves correct, there was something different about the second engine, didn't it's crankshaft spin in the opposite direction? I didn't know Ray Jones has it.

I still think building this aircraft is all going to end in tears; mind you, a glorious death is so hard to come by these days. So, best of luck, I think.

Johan


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 Post subject: 50B engines.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 9:56 am 
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The extract below from a forthcoming publication lists these engines for the aircraft project.

50B1 A significantly redesigned version of the type 50 motor : 4739cc, 84x107mm supercharged.
50B2 As above but only 4433cc, 84x100mm.
50B3
As above but only 2982cc, 78x78mm.
50B470D Designation for handed 50B aircraft engine – D = droit (right hand).
50B470G As above. G = gauche (left hand).

50BI A significantly redesigned version of the type 50 motor : 4739cc, 84x107mm supercharged.
50BII As above but only 4433cc, 84x100mm.
50BIII As above but only 2982cc, 78x78mm.

Note The same type 50B engines are referred to in different ways by different sources, e.g. The Bugatti Trust refers to 50B2 whereas Conway refers to 50 BII. However, the latter use of Roman numerals would not be normal Molsheim practice.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:14 am 
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Johan Buchner wrote:

Neil Corner selling his Bugattis? This is the end, I tell you. Western Civilisation will fall. To be replaced by Korea? Korea??!!!

Farewell cruel world!

Johan has left the forum.


Soon it will be the rich Chinese and Indian, it has not yet started but in a few years it will happen. They are ... in fact, some became interested in the history of the finest automobile manufacturers, Ferrari, Alfa Romeo, Bugatti, Delahaye, Talbot etc ... Consequently many models that are in the West will change the continent in the future.

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Make your dream devour your life, so that life doesn't devour your dream.
[Antoine de Saint-Exupéry]


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:15 am 
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Legaleagle is right, there is a difference between both engines, but it's NOT the turning direction. The engines only have intake - exhaust sides switched. The engines therefore are 50B470D and 50B470G.

What is this forthcoming publication? I am searching since long for detailed info on the T50B engines, esepcially how many were built; there are 3 known for the airplane, but there should be 4.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:24 pm 
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Don't worry about the replica. It will be made with the same materials that are used for Formula 1 cars. Very light, and rigid.

I hope the 250 HP version works as expected, and the 2x T50B engines will be available once to test the airplane at full speed.

Another option is an engine from an Indycar, or a (double) blown 9.1 liter V8. (I saw one for sale at the Dutch Boat show, cost was 100.000 euro.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 9:51 am 
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A 9.1 l ex-Indycar V8? Times 2? Are you TRYING to kill Jaap?

How rude. :D

Johan


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