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 Post subject: impossible in a word
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 8:03 pm 
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[quote="Herman"]Before drawing conclusions, I would like to learn more about the registration process for these cars.

In NL you can easily register any homebuilt car as it is, a kitcar. Registering it as a Bugatti might be more difficult.

How is that in France?[quote] In england if the car cannot be registered as 1928 but must [like a PS] be registered as new then it is quite impossible because it could never conform to the current regulations,to name just one,the front of the car must not have any sharp edges ! seat belts,etc etc etc crashtesting.In france it is impossible.I spoke at length to the FFVE at retromobile for the car of my daughter and they are quite unable to help.This is why the french have to find alternative solutions to this problem.I am not convinced about your idea that it is easy to register a kitbuilt car in holland.Why not try it for us and i do not mean a normal kitcar like a cobra,try a Bugatti T37.we would all be interested to see the results.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 8:13 pm 
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Absolutely Herman, and allow me to make this quite clear (I'm afraid my reply to Jeroen might create a false perception), the actions of the three "gentlemen" is simply beyond the pale. They attacked Wiki. They denied, or at least tried, to deny us information already available to us. They threatened Christian. They were motivated by greed. They treated you, Bugattibuilder, and by association all of us, with utter contempt. Do to them as you please. Let them suffer the consequences of their actions. They deserve nothing less.

Johan

PS Submitted after Lazarus posted his reply - interesting.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 8:29 pm 
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Lazarus, you are British but living in France. I know that in Britain you can register almost anything as a car. I've seen the most ridiculous contraptions (a driveable sofa built on the undercarriage of a car) registered in Britain.
What if you register your bitsa Bugatti or Pur Sang in Britain. Then, with the British registration papers, you import the car to France. Due to European law, I think France has to register your car. Wouldn't that be a solution?

Regards, Jeroen

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 8:34 pm 
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Back to the Wiki, as I already mailed to Herman, I proposed to create a template and "rules" for the cards. Just because everyone will complete the cards in the same way.

By researching 38470 (see: http://www.bugattibuilder.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1304), I noticed that the order of the former owners on the Wiki is not correct. Probably, because the notation in different registers is different. One register goes from oldest to newest former owner, others from newest to oldest former owner.

The former owners of 38470 are not correct, I will modify the Wiki.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:30 pm 
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<a href="http://www.bugattibuilder.com/photo/albums/userpics/10003/0015small.jpg"><img src="http://www.bugattibuilder.com/photo/albums/userpics/10003/normal_0015small.jpg" alt="Paradigm"></a>

One off built car. Home design and homebuilt frame and bodywork, most mechanics are Renault. No crash test, no old papers. Does have rear view mirrors, hydraulic brakes and seatbelts though.

As said, I will only dive into this after the dust has settled on the current events, and believe me, there will be another couple of hours spent on doing that.

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 Post subject: that would be nice
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:15 pm 
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octagonfox wrote:
Lazarus, you are British but living in France. I know that in Britain you can register almost anything as a car. I've seen the most ridiculous contraptions (a driveable sofa built on the undercarriage of a car) registered in Britain.
What if you register your bitsa Bugatti or Pur Sang in Britain. Then, with the British registration papers, you import the car to France. Due to European law, I think France has to register your car. Wouldn't that be a solution?

Regards, Jeroen
Unfortunately the uk is just as difficult thesedays as the rest of europe.


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 Post subject: one off registration as car in holland these days.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:23 am 
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My knowledge goes a little further, if you build a car,you can as an individual register a car as a "one off" and you dont have to go through crash tests and so on. You however has to apply to the co emission rules and that mean you have either run the costly test or use the engine and the drive train of an already approved model. this rule killed the commercial "cobra conversion" world. but GT40 and Ferrari/Fiero conversions sometimes pop up with registrations. But a lot of work an hasle nowadays. :roll:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:41 am 
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The interesting point of this forum and wiki is this:

Is this supposed to be the comprehensive database in the world pertaining to the definitive history of Bugatti's?

-OR-

Should this be the definitive archive for the ongoing and continual history of Bugatti's as they are shown to the public, events and/or auctions. (discussion about legitimacy / originality can be broached but the final verdict left to the world of the Registrar's who should be doing this)

I think this latter option is the one that doesn't compete with the book/publishing world or with the Bugatti Club Registrar's. Without their work over the past decades, imagine how screwed up the history of Bugatti would be! The problem with a book is that you can only show a few pictures by default else volume will became thousands of pages fairly quickly. This forum you could have hundreds of pictures of the same chassis without problem -- and that is what makes this the most compelling form due to its visual nature.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:14 am 
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You raise a most thought provoking point Mark - My first instinct is to reply "both." But I need to ponder this for a while. In the mean time, allow me to pose this question : Will defining Wiki make it ...... better(?)

This has been an most 'interesting' few days.

Johan


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:26 am 
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I would not like to limit the WIKI to one or the other. I see it as a "vacuum cleaner" for all data available. Whether it is history, event tracking, rebuilds or anything else.
Per chassis number delivered in a nice looking way, and with links to more info or pictures.
Internet is virtually unlimited, WIKI is virtually unlimited. Let's do no limit ourselves.

I do not feel I am competing with any Bugatti register. The www.bugattiregister.com merely provides a framework, on which researchers can base some work. Bringing together all available info from various sources reveils entries that deserve some investigation, and it would be great if someone jumped into that.

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 Post subject: registration of builtup Bugattis
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:18 am 
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octagonfox wrote:
Lazarus, you are British but living in France. I know that in Britain you can register almost anything as a car. I've seen the most ridiculous contraptions (a driveable sofa built on the undercarriage of a car) registered in Britain.
What if you register your bitsa Bugatti or Pur Sang in Britain. Then, with the British registration papers, you import the car to France. Due to European law, I think France has to register your car. Wouldn't that be a solution?

Regards, Jeroen
Yes it would be a solution but sadly it is almost impossible these days to get these cars registered in the uk and secondly when you bring a car to france you have to go through the whole business again.I have avoided going into too much detail but I have as you may know just moved to france [3 years ago ] and had to import some 9 cars.Each one needed 8 documents.[1] document to show import tax paid or that car is european and thus exempt [2] proof of domicile [3] passport [4] original logbook from country of origine [5] aplication form for new logbook [marriage details parents names etc ! ] [6]control technique [7] certificat de conformite.this is the killer.You can get it from the manufacturer for a small fee [130 euros for my peugeot 406 ] but in the case of an old car you have to apply to the FFVE [ federation Francais de Vehicle d'Epoque ] They require proof of originality and the car must have a genuine history and the chassis number that corresponds.] [8] photos of the car [9] the money. It is equally difficult these days in the UK,the last car i registered in england was a Facel Vega Facellia.This was a known car with a known history but still took two months of wrangling.I had foolishly fitted an aluminium body looking like another type of car ! In england the good days where an ex policeman would come round and look at the car and sign the papers are long gone,in france they never existed.From what I have seen there are probably between 50 and a hundred Bugattis in france with some discrepancy in the paperwork.I suspect that there are a lot of french Bugatti owners who do not want to wake up the sleeping bear.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:45 am 
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octagonfox wrote:
Johan Buchner wrote:
I find Lazarus' latest post quite thought provoking. Could anyone reasonably object to an owner wishing to remain anonymous? Perhaps such an owner's wishes could be quietly respected, you know the sort of thing I'm talking about, a polite e-mail to Herman requesting the removal of an owner's name from Wiki to prevent anymore trouble with the French tax and licensing authorities.


I couldn't disagree more (no offence Johan). An owner requesting (or demanding like in the last days) to have information deleted is censorship. It goes against everything a Wiki stands for. It is about freedom of speech. Remember, this information is public (books, registers, programmes of meetings etc.).

Regards, Jeroen

Sorry Jeroen, In my opinion any owner should have the possibility to remain anonymous; his name can be only posted with the car if the owner agrees to do so.

Remember that a register (printed in 500 - 1000 copies) is a lot less "public" than the Internet. Add the searchability of the Internet to that, which enables anybody to search on a certain name and find out what cars he ownes. I can imagine that there are many owners who do not want this. Wiki should respect that wish.

I did a search on my own name the other day (try it) and was surprised what I found! A few listings were present which I never thought that would be there.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 2:24 pm 
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I am in agreement with Jaap.

If an owner wishes to remain anonymous, it has the right to ask it. Some required that and I erased their name. To prevent that the name is put by another contributor on WIKI. It is necessary to specify: wish to remain anonymous. I think that WIKI must be a register for Bugatti, but not to reveal the name of the current owner automatically


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 Post subject: Re: Bugattibuilder.com V3
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:17 pm 
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Pas de nouvelles de Herman.
Il n'apparaît plus sur le forum et n'a pas poursuivi le transfert des données sur le nouveau WIKI

Aurait-il réellement des problèmes venant des propriétaires de Bugatti qui ne veulent pas que des informations soit données sur leur Bugatti et qui l'ont menacé d'une action en justice, voir message de Maître Collard



Transalte by Babel Fish:

No the news of Hermann. He does not appear any more on the forum and did not continue the transfer of the data on the new WIKI.

It would have really problems coming from the owners of Bugatti who do not want that information is given on their Bugatti and who threatened it of an legal action, to see message of Collard Master

“Dear Mister Herman Brouwer (Kievitsbloem 16 2811 RN REEUWIJK)
I am mister Collard, the french lawyer of the current owner of this car.
My client don’t agree with the fact you publish his name on your website.
Under the french law about private life, for each day his name will appear on your website about a car (actually noted by french ushers), we will require you 350€ for each car (or ‘chassis number’)
We will judiciary proceedings under the french legislation and jurisdiction. We actually undertake to complaint both dutch police and french police.
Regards.
Gilbert Collard – Marseille French Lawier of the current owner”


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 Post subject: Re: Bugattibuilder.com V3
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 5:24 pm 
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I mailed this mister Collard via his weblog, but got no answer.

If you were a highly respected lawyer, and a friend asks you to settle things, would you use an IP spoofer to access the WIKI, find out my address (on the contact page, including my telephone number), then leave a stupid message?

Or would you pick up the phone, and settle within a couple of minutes? Or even write an Email?

Think about that.

And something else:

Besides bugattibuilder.com I also have a full time job, a house in desperate need of refinishing, and a pregnant wife asking for both attention and finishing the house.
Last week was a hectic week for Bugattibuilder, and I spent many hours to settle things, organise things, install software, and communicate with many members. On top of that a spammer seemed to feel the need to use the (outdated) forum software to spread his spam, and I needed to replace the forum as well.

This is where we are today:
-the weekend is mostly spent renovating the house. (needs to be finished before the baby is born, so before the 5th of July, another 4 months)
-time permitting I transfer each wiki card to the new WIKI. This, however, needs to be done almost 1 by 1.
-if more time is available, I will update the forum with the old template. (which needs heavily modification to fit the new software) and I will create a new layout for the bugattiregister.com website.

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