Info wanted on Bugatti type 50 with 57 body

Herman · **Posted:** Sat Oct 14, 2006 1:45 pm

OK, here's one for the experts.

A modelmaker asked me whether there was a Bugatti type 50, with the above body mounted. (Ventoux). His client asked to build him a model of that combination, which he claims exists (existed).

Anyone who can help him out?

modelmaker · **Posted:** Sat Oct 14, 2006 1:57 pm

Thanks for posting this photo Herman and for all your help!
Please anyone any information would be greatly appriciated .

Many Thanks
Sean

Herman · **Posted:** Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:54 am

The latest Review (Bugatti Page) contains an article under the title "Compassion or Crime" At the end of the article there are a few photographs, the last one shows 57286, 50131 and 50113 standing behind a transporter. Look at the wing line on 50113 - doesn't it look a lot like a Ventoux's wings? I believe this car to be bodied by Million Guiet and in 1937 the vertical windscreen was raked back a little and the wings modernised. The present owner (Mr Rafferty?) has returned it to its original appearance.

Could this be car Sean (modelmaker) is referring to?

bugatti69 · **Posted:** Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:14 am

the model with the 1/43, kit of Métal43, is not T50.

It is a Ventoux type, probably the 57400:

http://wiki.bugattibuilder.com/index.php?title=57400

J.J.Horst · **Posted:** Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:07 pm

I never saw a (photograph of a) Ventoux body on a T50. In fact the Ventoux body was inspirated on the T50 Profilée. If this combination did exist (and even stranger combinations did), it probably was for a short time.

Johan Buchner · **Posted:** Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:28 pm

Every time I open this forum I am confronted with Jaap Horst's rather terse reply to Herman's suggestion that 50113 might be the T50 with T57 Ventoux coachwork. I fully understand Jaap's disbelieve that a Buggatisti of Herman's stature could make such a suggestion, because I am the idiot who suggested it. I asked Herman to do the post for me for two reasons:

1) I do not know how to add a picture to my posts

2) I am still not over the whole 50117 debacle; I really thought they were 2 separate cars and not, as it turns out, the same car restored to the owners wishes. I really do not enjoy being publicly humiliated, especially not when I thoroughly deserve said humiliation.

I owe Herman too much to let my sense of shame impugn the reputation of a great historian. With your kind permission I shall now give you a bit of background to my latest little mistake.

It all began with the the September 1997 issue of Classic and Sports Car - page 17. Mick Walsh wrote about an exquisitely restored T50 with Million-Guiet coachwork. The owner, Gerhard von Raffay, (Sorry Herman) bought the car at auction in 1993 and then embarked on a major restoration to original specification. From the same article I learn that the car was originally bodied with a Weyman fabric coachwork, but in January 1931 it was rebodied by Million-Guiet. It then starred in a movie called "The crime of Monsieur Lange" and in 1937 the wings were modernised and the windscreen raked back. Then Michelle Dovaz bought it and this is where things starts getting interesting.

So, since 1997 my files contain a photo of a beautiful T50 but no Chassis Number. So many T50's, so few chassis numbers. Anyway, in 2005 I got Barrie Price's Type 46 & 50 and lo and behold, on page 43, a photo of this same car taken, I presume, shortly after completion. No chassis number though.....but I shall not criticize Mr Price again; I have learnt my lesson. Forward to the latest issue of the Bugatti Review (Thanks Jaap) and the article about Mr Dovaz's collection. Good passionate writing, (I do not care if the authors may prove to be mistaken, I applaud their efforts to correct what they see as a public dishonouring of Mr Dovaz) many photos and chassis numbers for all cars so depicted. I was in Heaven!

The authors provided two T50 ch.no's: 50131 and 50113. If these are the only two T50's owned by Mr Dovaz then Mr von Raffay's is 50113. Request to experts: Can you kindly confirm or deny? So how does this link in with a question about a T50 with Ventoux coachwork? I'm so glad you asked. Take a look at the last photo; the car right behind the transporter. Does those wings not look an awful lot like a T57 Ventoux's? If I understand the question correctly, the photo of the model of a two-light Ventoux was included for illustrative purposes only; the model builder stating that his client insisted that such a body was mounted on a T50. But what if we are talking about a memory diluted by time, followed by a sighting of a Ventoux and then the incorrect conclusion? This is pure conjecture on my part, but I still think that the modernised Million-Guiet looks a bit like a four-light Ventoux.

Does anyone have a photo of this car taken shortly after the wings and windscreen were modernised? It must have looked utterly stunning. And while I'm at it, what is the history of 50131? I know nothing about this car.

So, dear friends, I trust Herman's good name has now been restored in honour? This is what I love about this forum; I get to mingle with giants. I have so much to learn; start teaching!

Kind Regards
Johan Buchner

PS How many two-light Ventouxs were built and how many survive?

J.J.Horst · **Posted:** Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:07 am

I never ment to be harsh in my reply in any way, it's just my (very quick) reply to the question. To be a bit more elaborate; I have never seen any proof of a Bugatti T50 with a T57 Ventoux body, though there may have very well been T50's with a body similar to that of the ventoux.

Really fitting a Ventoux body on a T50 chassis would be very difficult, as far as I know, as the chassis is different, though I do not exclude that it was ever tried. Therefore, I can not 100% exclude that there ever was a T50 with a Ventoux body, everything I'm saying is that it is highly unlikely!

Regards,

Jaap Horst

Herman · **Posted:** Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:04 am

No problem whatsoever.

Fitting a Ventoux body on a T50 is a difficult task. Wheelbase is different. Best bet I guess is to shorten the chassis.

However, Johan is right about the fact that the first car in his photos can easily be mistaken for a Ventoux.

Another possibility is that somewhere in history, someone fitted T50 or T49 wheels to a T57 Ventoux. That could also easily be mistaken for a "type 50 with Ventoux body".

octagonfox · **Joined:** Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:05 pm **Posts:** 232

I don't think it is a Ventoux body placed on a type 50, it wouldn't fit. Also, look at the lines of the first car. The type 50 radiator has no shoulders, like the 57 radiator, so the lines of the hood are different, rounder then on a Ventoux. Look at the scuttle and the difference with the horizontal line of the hood on the 57 Ventoux in the picture.

Look at this picture:

It is the same car from side view. You can see it is a body shaped like a Ventoux, but it's not a real Ventoux body.

Johan Buchner · **Posted:** Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:01 am

Thank you for this profile shot. I never realised just how extravagant the wings are. Damn, what a beautiful car.

Was any photos taken after the restyling? If so, can I see them? Please?

Johan

Herman · **Posted:** Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:08 am

It also seems that is has a 3-colour paintjob. Should look exiting these days.

Info wanted on Bugatti type 50 with 57 body

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