I was looking at the Wiki chassis number data base, and I am surprised to see an existing car for the chassis number 51137

http://www.bugattibuilder.com/wiki/inde ... itle=51137

It is well known that the car claiming this identity was built up by Novo in the 70's for Pierre Bardinon. The chassis is a T37 imported from Australia and the engine was taken off the complete and original T55 55202 by Novo.
The owner (Bardinon or Chambon) was able to get the french registration document of the lost 51137 and put it on this made up Grand Prix.
There is absolutely no parts from the original 51137 in that car.

My question is :

Can we consider this Bugatti as a genuine T51 51137 ?

Actually I did not know this. Perhaps I can return the favour? In WIKI Peter Mullin claims to own a T57S, chassis 57492, yet both Laugier and Simon state quite clearly that this car, originally one of 17 Atalantes, does not survive.

Thanks for bringing this fraud to our attention, are you aware of any other fakes masquerading as original?

Thank you bugfan for this precision. to see:

http://www.bugattibuilder.com/wiki/inde ... le=51137-b

to also see http://www.bugattibuilder.com/wiki/inde ... le=57492-b

I will take it a bit further: there is not a part in this fake T51 that ever was fitted to ANY T51. Molsheim bits but NOT T51.
Bugwrench

Mullin is clearly not trying to fool anyone on this one. This Replica was build up by Crosthwaite and Gardiner, it's engine stamped 9s, and it also has a matching fake chassis plate 57492. It has what appears to be an original T50 blower, and is on a genuine replica frame also. Former owners were the legendary Uwe Hucke, and Ray Jones. No one ever called this car real to my knowledge, and Mullin recorded it in all the registers as a fake. It just is what it is.

A fanatic is one who can't change his mind
and won't change the subject.
Winston Churchill

I am sure one day, there will be a class for these ''Genuine Original Replicas''....once they age, throw a rod, hit a wall and get repaired, loose there paperwork and are exported and re-imported a few times by dyslectic owners with Alzheimer's who's phone get disconnected, that will be enough of a story to put them in the Winner's circle at Pebble Beach and other fluffy shows. Hey, it's already happened.....no?

Imagination is stronger than knowledge.
Albert Einstein

Let's hear it for the integrity of the esteemed Mr. Mullin! How refreshing to hear there are still collectors out there willing to entertain the truth, even though he didn't seem to mind the information on this forum claiming his replica as original. Or any other website, including that of the A.B.C, following suit for that matter. As a matter of fact, I don't recall him ever publicly correcting any source erroneously claiming his car as 57492.

I however, did. In one of my first posts after joining this forum in September 2007 I quoted both Laugier and Simon as stating as fact that 57492 is a lost car. Peter Mullin did not respond. Nor could any member of the American Bugatti Club, Bugatti Owners Club or The Bugatti Trust be bothered to dispel a single falsehood.

However, be that as it may, if he and the entire Bugatti-owning community is so acutely aware of this car's lack of provenance, why go through the pretence of giving it a false chassis number? Or calling it a Bugatti Type 57S in the first place?

You suggest that one day a car with fuzzy history could win at Pebble Beach It's already happened, Bill Harrah did in 1964 with a car laying claim to a T50T identity. Turns out it is actually a T46 fitted with a T50 engine.

Until today Pierre Bardinon's T37 special lay claim to chassis number 51137. I remain confident, given the constant vigil of incorruptible researchers, that the healing light of public scrutiny shall eventually eradicate the cancer of lies and fraud which pose such a grave danger to a terribly fragile legacy.

For Evil to Triumph, all Good men have to do is Nothing. If this makes me a fanatic, so be it.

Yours
Johan Buchner

Exactly that is the big risk....!
From auction to auction the descriptions change...
...from "rumoured to be" through "reported to be" to "is".

The Harrah T50 has only recently been referred to a T46, although Conway's records have stated that for years. Now owned by a dutchman car distributor I viewed the car when it was delivered to him over a decade ago. At that time this new buyer thought it actually was a T50, maybe he still thinks this, yet the T46 connection wasn't mentioned. The money paid was, as the Dutch car dealer said, it was T50 money for a T46.

I have not compared the chassis to a genuine T46, but the subject car has an engine installed in 1963 that was marked 186 from car 50146 ( I believe Bill Harrah did that) .It was at that time the car was baptized a T50 and recorded forever after in all the registers as a T50. I had a T46S, it seems a smaller car than Bill's T50. Does anyone know the chassis differences?

Look at the Williams cars out to auction last week, some referred to as dual models for added value. It happens all the time. Did the guy who bought the T51 think it was some T51 DNA in there because of the catalog text and the price he paid ?

Regarding collectors, men are men where ever they are. Mine is bigger than yours, my marbles are finer and I have more of them has been the mantra since cavemen started collecting animal horns. It is now a given that printed documentation by a neutral third party gives creditability to collections, so what is printed, whether from auction catalogs to picture books, is taken as true and in fact documented. Well, reader beware.

Mullin has a great collection of cars, a wonderful archive and many of the finest examples of French cars. His partner, Jim Hull is equally knowledgeable. Both are well connected with all the historians, and the main stream of the classic car industry. But there are some suspect cars accumulated in this collection. I am not sure if anyone can avoid this by the shear momentum of adding cars to a collection in such qualities, or the temptation of discovery once you own a suspected treasure. It is in these cases that some cars get a padded history. Some collectors are just that, collectors.

Other men with great cars are custodians, I don't view them as collectors. I view Dr. Fred Simone as a custodian. There is a difference in the custodian and collectors opinions and actions. It is reflective in how they speak of their collections and of the people who actually assist them in the documentation of their cars. I think Harrah, Milles Collier , Brook Stevens, Cummingham, Bob Ruben and Simone are the finest of this past centuries custodians. Despite the T46, T50 issue, Bill called a dog a dog. At the time, little of us knew a T46 ever had a profile body.

I once saw a rare French car come from India. It was in terrible condition. The remains were in a crate stamped Bombay. A new car was fully restored sitting next to the crate, it was the reincarnation of the remains. I looked at the remains. I asked if any of the remains were used in the restoration of the new car . The answer was clearly not much COULD be used. The remains had a bent and dented makers badge on it, it said Old Calcutta Coachworks, Bombay, India. I asked if I could have that badge and was given it. The car remains had NO numbers on it, whatsoever . Not one metal piece had a number stamped on it.

Ten years later a fuzzy photo in a glossy book, a hand selected Figoni et Falaschi number, and the creditability of being in a Big Dog's collection makes a phony figoni , a real Figoni . The car is anointed by a neutral author who has never owned a Figoni but reins the modern day Figoni Pope. Well, since when did Figoni use teakwood to build the body's framing? Facts are ignored, and the prestige and glizz of a big collection dazzles the eyes and the mind goes blank.

Regarding Pebble Beach, it is all about the money honey. If you are there on the green, you can pay and play. You can write the rules or have someone do it for you, if you can afford to. If you question a decision publicly , you could very well never be invited again. Judges now are celebrities and their opinions are well over the worth of the engineering math of true researchers and restorers. I can accept that, if you realize that it is just a game. Remember, it is JUST a game.

A T-46 called a T50 , and sold as a T50, simply because a T50 is better, rarer, and more expensive, is still a T46. It is the ego that calls it a T50, not the facts. An Old Calcutta called a Figoni is an Old Calcutta, unless for a short period of time the trick is concealed by the fear of truth telling. That truth can black ball you in those elitist circles.

In the end, men are JUST custodians of these treasures. We should do the best to document them correctly, and preserve them historically with the correct information. It's a black or white thing, right or wrong, bad or good - it is just the truth that we search for to somehow do justice .

Once Bill Harrah was dead, the word spread that the T50 was a T46, the truth emerges. Sometimes the truth is concealed, but I am positive that is for only as long as the Collector of a lie can maintain the lie in his collection.

Somehow, I feel I am venting in these long letters...

The first step in the acquisition of wisdom is silence, the second listening, the third memory, the fourth practice, the fifth teaching others.
Gabriol

Well, of course you're venting. Passionately. onebugatti there is no alternative, all of us, every single one of us, love these fabulous cars with a quite unnatural passion. And yes, when passionate debate explodes, feelings will be hurt, insults will be flung and it is a glorious thing. The fiercest battles on this forum has served a purpose beyond entertainment, it brings insight.

Your new post being a case in point : Dr. Fred Simeone's guardianship of some of the most original and/or sensitively preserved collectors cars has now been mentioned and recorded. Allow me to add : about bloody time too. I have nothing but admiration for him, and his Alfa Romeo 8C2.9 MM Spyder is now the most untouched of all of them. That man never view his cars as symbols of his ego and vanity but he understands their real worth. He is by no means alone, but he is, however, one of few.

Yourself, Bugwrench and Williamswinner have expressed extremely strong views about the Kellog car, yet I still like it. I also believe that since it is highly unlikely ever to be mistaken for a real Bugatti, it poses no harm. But that is my opinion, and I will defend to the death your right to hold as strong a view about anything you care. The only bad thing is to quietly seethe in frustration and to withdraw. Through discussion, debate, bitching, verbal combat, call it what you will, vital information enters the public arena. For confirmation read the update entry for 51137 in Wiki. But will it guarantee that it will never again be sold as a genuine T51? I have no idea, quite frankly.

At the moment there are ongoing threads about several G.P. Bugattis, and it is a constant source of wonder to me how much remains shrouded in mystery. Those individuals who add to the confusion by trying to pass off one thing as another just adds further misery. We, especially those of us not in a position to take on the responsibility of preserving a Bugatti for future generations, have but one weapon : The truth. Replicas are not a problem. Fantasy cars are not a problem. Cars created from a pile of rusty bits dragged out of a barn are not a problem. Fraud is a problem. I believe I've quoted the following before : Technology is innocent, only man is vile. It is hard enough to keep tread of the true history of cars designed to be raced to destruction without greed entering the equation. And it has. And it does. And it will.

Finally, I'll let you in to a little secret, for some strange reason, I am utterly nuts about Ray Jones. All hail the King of the Rogues. For all my purist leanings, this man brings out my inner hypocrite, if he says the Cork racer is original , its good enough for me. If he says that he fitted a wooden crankshaft, I applaud. Yet Ralph Lauren offends me beyond speech, which makes for my inner duality referred to by Bugwrench in an earlier post. (Now there was an good fight!) Or simply put, I am a hypocrite, and proud of it sometimes. Sometimes.

The Type 46, whether supercharged or not, only ever had one wheelbase. When it was unveiled the T50 had a slightly shorter wheelbase. (I've got the exact measurements at home.) The last 20 T50's had the same wheelbase as the T46, and, so I believe, slightly detuned engines. Strictly speaking they are known as the T50T. Apart form the engine, the rest of the running gear and proportions are identical to the T46.

Your impression that the Harrah car appeared bigger than your T46 is probably due to the coachwork. I truly believed that the prototype Royale was longer than the production cars, but it wasn't. The illusion of greater length is a product of those immensely long running boards. Which really underscores Jean's genius as designer, but that is for another thread.

I love your writing, especially when you're pissed off. Strength to you.

Regards
Johan

About cars that adapt other identities, a nice story has been written about a Porsche. See here:
http://www.atico.nl/camelot/seinfeld.html

_________________
Vive la Marque !!

Thanks Herman, this is truly entertaining! Do you think the truth will ever come out?

Yes or no, depends on the truth at Porsche. If what they say is true, the cut-outs of the 300170 are in the archives. Or they are not in the archives, but on Seinfelds car. Or they do not read 300170. Different options...

Anyhow, this man writes in a humoristic way. Did you know this guy actually was the guy that helped me obtain my first Pocher Bugatti model? He bought it for me in Italy.

_________________
Vive la Marque !!

Herman I tell you it is just plain weird how relationships develop, especially the internet ones. Apart form the ongoing debates on the forum, I have e-mail contact with 2 editors, 2 authors, a master model-builder, a world-class restorer and an owner of a highly respected restoration shop. And at least three of them own Bugattis.

And then there is a guy in the Czech Republic who runs this hard-core .............. no wait, wrong forum. You're right, your friend writes with wit and humour. He posted a response from his fiercest critic on his own site, and then responded to each point with devastating calmness. Priceless!