What manufacturer gets close to Bugatti?

J.J.Horst · **Posted:** Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:27 am

I'd like to know your opinion if you know of any manufacturer, designer, inventor who comes close to Ettore Bugatti? In quality of design/products, racing successes, ideas and executions in different fields (Automobile, aviation, rail etc.)

I thought, maybe Gabriel Voisin, Rolls-Royce, any others??

hortig78rpm · **Joined:** Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:12 pm **Posts:** 247

oh lord, there are many...
duesenberg brothers, voisin, buccialli brothers, marc birgit,
bouton, renault, maseratti brothers and so on...............

J.J.Horst · **Posted:** Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:51 pm

Well, in my (humble) opinion (I'm not quite an inventor as most of them you mention, with only one patent to my name) the names you mention come close in one of the fields I mention, but never on all the fields.

I guess Gabriel Voisin, and maybe Marc Birkigt come closest.

Maybe we should add one: the way that Ettore managed to avoid bankruptcy, and get funds from various projects and bankers. There should be more automobile manufacturers close to that?

And another: Who knows a manufacturer who is just as stubborn in not accepting certain developments (from elsewhere) in his cars??

Johan Buchner · **Posted:** Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:27 pm

That one's easy. I believe Enzo Ferrari stubbornly refused to implement many advances into his cars and it cost him dearly, but Enzo Ferrari always stepped up to the plate, always raced and occasionally triumphed. Often actually. He has one other characteristic in common with Ettore Bugatti : They were both extraordinarily passionate human beings. Flawed men both yes, but they lived life to the full and became Immortals.

As far as diversity goes, I think you are right, only Gabriel Voisin comes close, but Ettore owned his company till the very end. I think it is safe to say that Ettore Bugatti was utterly unique. There are many great automotive engineers and tycoons who have achieved things of much greatness, but somehow Ettore's life and career was just that little bit more glittering. And because of this his brilliant but fragile legacy is facing such mortal danger. His cars have become blue-chip investments commanding unprecedented prices. Their value as historical artefacts are of importance only to people who cannot compete at this level. It's all going to end in tears, I'm telling you.

Johan Buchner

J.J.Horst · **Posted:** Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:08 pm

The way you write it Johan, there's only one person coming close: Leonardo da Vinci......

Herman · **Posted:** Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:49 pm

Ferdinand Porsche... First watercooled 911 end 90s I believe.

Harley Davidson: First motorbike with rear suspension after WW2.

In later days, was it not Jean who triggered most development? Creme de Menthe comes to my mind. First Ettore designs a full suspension car (T53) and afterwards Jean does the same, and got the crap beaten out of him for doing so. Perhaps because he crashed a T53? And thus Ettore did not find them safe?

octagonfox · **Joined:** Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:05 pm **Posts:** 232

Was it Ettore who instigated the Type 53? Or Jean? I think i'st more likely that Jean was the driving force behind the four wheel drive (of course this is pure my speculation).

Since Jean was maturing and getting more experienced in the trade of building cars, his influence was getting stronger and stronger. I think it was Jeans influence to start investigating a twin cam design. The fact that they didn't start from scratch like (I think) Ettore would have done, but bought the two Millers and almost literally copied the twin cam head design leads me to think it was Jean.

Also, a lot of design work on the Type 53 was done by Italian engineer Pichetto. I think this car was conceived by from Jeans and Pichetto, and Ettore probably "tolerated" it rather then instigate it. Jean was more open minded and progressive then Ettore.

Regards, Jeroen

octagonfox · **Joined:** Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:05 pm **Posts:** 232

Hello Jaap,

You mention the business side of the Bugatti factory, in which I am very interested. How was the company funded. What was the role of the Darmstadt Bank and/or De Vizcaya in the early years. I think there was external funding in the thirties, when the company was approaching bankrupcy?

Do you (anyone else is of course more then welcome to contribute too) have more information on this side of the Bugatti history?

Regards, Jeroen

Herman · **Posted:** Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:03 pm

It was Bucar which bought a huge amount of T57 chassis, to save the company from bankrupcy. Lets discuss this in a seperate thread.

octagonfox · **Joined:** Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:05 pm **Posts:** 232

OK, sorry chief. :oops:

Just kidding.

Regards, Jeroen

Greg Morgan · **Joined:** Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:10 am **Posts:** 334

Would I be courting controversy if I was to suggest John Z Delorean?

Johan Buchner · **Posted:** Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:32 pm

Greg you are evil. I like that.

sleevevalve · **Joined:** Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:44 pm **Posts:** 23

One also might suggest Hans Ledwinka (of Tatra fame), Fred W. Lanchester and Harry Miller. In terms of versatility and long-lasting influence, the most important single figure in automobile engineering probably was Ferdinand Porsche – not only because of the Volkswagen and Porsche sports car connection, but also because of his electric vehicles, aero engines, legendary early sports cars (Austro Daimler), racing cars (Auto Union), tanks, etc. etc. In terms of sheer vision, both in aviation and motoring, no one comes close to Gabriel Voisin. By the way, did you Gentlemen notice the September 2003 issue of Retroviseur magazine ? There, a T50 Bugatti is compared with a Voisin saloon car. In most respects, the Voisin ranked as good or better in most categories (roomier, comfortable, better ergonomics , better ventilation, better visibiliy, more complete instrumentation), with almost as smooth a ride as the much larger Bugatti. The 5-litre Bugatti outruns the highly efficient and light-weight 2.3 litre Voisin, of course, but only by a small margin. The very polite magazine editors did not claim the Voisin to be the altogether better car (perhaps because this conclusion was all too obvious?), so it is up to you Gentlemen to decide !

horseshoe · **Joined:** Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:52 pm **Posts:** 52

Also think of Spijker, in those days one of a kind, technical spoken. First 4 wheel drive production car.

hortig78rpm · **Joined:** Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:12 pm **Posts:** 247

stubborn car manufactors:
I think the first one was carl benz, who still built his coach-like cars with low speed up to 19o1.

many of you mentioned ferdinand porsche: of course. he started with
electric cars ( lohner) and was the first one you "invented" hybrid" cars,
which now were labeled as the best development in car-industrie during the last years.during the 2o`s and 3o`s he designed many of the all time classics, like the austro daimler bergmeister or the audi racing cars.
and afterwards, he designed the world`s most popular car, the VW beetle, ending up with building up his own factory , porsche.

marc birgit should be also among the cream, cause
he allways went " with the time".

and ettore, if he had`nt been so lucky, to use his greatest "flop" the royale
for railway-engines, the company had ended much earlier.

regards
mike

What manufacturer gets close to Bugatti?

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