Let's open a new topic for the post war Bugattis. I hope some people will jump in, and perhaps we can get a better view of Bugatti after WWII.

The type numbers before WWII are mostly clear now, although there are still some omissions and surprises. Let;s discuss them!

On the books by Price: From my point of view they are nice photo books, which have some photos and some technical descriptions. However, no in depth information, and not really well researched. They are inexpensive to pick up, so it is doable.

There are also other books which are a laugh:

I recall "the complete book of Bugatti" which is a tiny (approx 10cm high, 12ch wide) book with about 70 pages or so. Nice book, and cheap, but complete? No.

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At the last Molsheim Festival I head lunch together with one of the engineers who worked on the post war cars. He told me about the T253, that could not be made to work, having a tubular centre section chassis (like the lotusses that had a backbone chassis with a box made of steel plate as main section of the chassis) but in tubes. This chassis was bad, had a poor roadholding and was in fact worse than the T252. In a roadtest, it crashed into a tree, in the hills near Molsheim. Also the 4-cylinder engine could not be made to work, the T253 engines either had no power, or they exploded.

The T451 had a V12, with the intake at the lower side, and the exhaust on the upper side of the V. No apparent advantage in that, probably just to be different from Ferrari's. The chassis was a copy of that of the T253, so luckily it was never made. Some parts for the engine were made, but never a complete engine.
The rumour about the wheels are true; 4 complete wheels were made, which were alloy, with radial spokes on the outside, more or less like the T59's wheels. Apart from the complete wheels, there were about a dozen of alloy castings, but not completed wheels. These wheels are probably in some private collection.

Lazarus, being the post war Bugatti expert, will probably have something to comment on this!

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surprisingly I spoke to the son of the Bugatti engineer today for the first time.I did not know that the T253 had been built but it is not surprising ! It was really only a development of the T252.I have not used the backbone chassis on my T253.I am curious to read that they had so much trouble with the T252 four cylinder motor.Columbo knew his business better than Ettore in my opinion and certainly I dont have trouble with my T252 ! Although I did blow it up a few times whilst getting to know the thing.Hopefully all in the past now.I recently had the pleasure of studying some 3000 Bugatti patterns for the postwar cars.It is difficult to imagine that they were short of money at that time.They made silly changes to columbos design which must have cost loads of money and to little purpose.

Dear Jaap,

Thanks for your answer, you have provided me with a very revealing piece of information on the T253 and T451, maybe the most complete that I had read until now. The book "Bugatti - Evolution of a style" (Kestler) also tells that some parts of the 451 engine were made, but not a complete engine. I had always been under the impression that this type, having had enough time and money for its development, could have relaunched the Marque. Now, with your information, I realize that the type 451 would have never been really a rival for Ferrari since its chassis was a derivative from another intended for a smaller and lighter engine of only 4 cylinders and 1.500 cc.

Hello Lazarus,

About the shortage of money: I have read that the company was not in such a bad financial position thanks to the money received from the French government through defense contracts for the supply of engines and other material used in the Indochina war and for the overhaulling of the autorails in service; apart from the production of precission mechanical parts (a job for which the company was very well prepared, indeed). But after the end of Indochina war in 1954 and when the autorails began to be phased out of service, the company sadly lost the majority of its bussiness.

I suppose that you are the owner of the T253 replica that can be seen on the wiki. What chassis have you used in your car; is it a copy of the 252 chassis? Is the body design based in some of the designs intended for the T252? I had seen the Michelotti design in the book "Bugatti - Evolution of a style" (Kestler) and also the drawing in "Bugatti - Dokumentation einer automobilmarke" (Hucke); but these designs do not have anything to do with your car. Is its engine an original T253?

Some information published in a French journal in 1960 about the T252 and the Bugatti revival can be seen in this French forum: http://www.forum-auto.com/automobile-pr ... -19495.htm

Regards,

Lanos

Type 252 - Design of Michelotti

<a href="http://www.bugattibuilder.com/photo/albums/userpics/10107/type252.jpg"><img src="http://www.bugattibuilder.com/photo/albums/userpics/10107/normal_type252.jpg" alt="Type 252 - by Paul Kestler"></a>

My T252 has a copy of the body used on the prototype T252 now to be seen at Schlumpf's. My T253 has no body as yet [ I had hoped to find a customer for the second car as I don't need two ] Both of my cars use a similar twintube chassis to the original factory prototype.However both of my chassis were made in 1960.............and not by me.It would appear from my research that both of my engines are unique.The T252 engine is half of a T251 and the schlumpf museum does not have this engine in four cylinder form,and the T253 does not seem to exist at all except with me.My cylinder head is stamped no 1.I received yesterday some original photos of the T253 prototype chassis during construction which I am sending to the site so everyone can see them.Up until yesterday I had not believed that this type had been made.It now seems clear that the second T252 roadtest mule at schlumpfs although not fitted with a T253 motor,is in fact The T253 prototype which was the subject of an accident [ I discovered that yesterday also ! ] It never ceases to amaze me that just when you think that there is no more information to be found someone rings up and says that his father was in charge of the experimental department,and has photos etc to prove it ! There is a T451 crankshaft in the UK so yes some parts were made.I have no doubt at all that if Columbo had been given a free hand with the design,and sufficient money and no family interference,The bugatti company could have produced a far better car than Ferarri.I only ever had one Ferarri and it was dreadful,so bad in fact that I gave it to my girlfriend and she didnt like it so sold it straight away !

Again, good info. I hope this thread will be the place to combine all info available: What designs have been made, what designs have been produced (prototypes) and what happened to those prototypes. Where are they (or their parts) now?

And of course, photos to back things up are great. They usually generate some more discussion, which in term generates more info.

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What I was told, the bad engine was the T253, not the T252 engine, though I do not have details what the differences were. I do not understand why a new T253 engine was developed. Maybe Colombo had left, and asked money for them using the T252 design??

As for the body, Pierre Macon (who is the fellow I had lunch with) made a few sketches for me (now in my possession!). The rear of the car was much like the Renault Fuego, with a hatchback opening rear window. That design was of course never realised.
One more detail; the seats were fixed, the steering wheel and pedals were adjustable.

Lazarus; do you have an idea where the T451 wheels now are??

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There was a T252 style body for sale several years ago, did you ever see that one? If you need to, I should be able to find some info somewhere.

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It seems that a short history lesson is necessary at this point.Let us look at the chronology of these various four cylinder motors made after 1955.[1] the first T252 four cylinder motor was quite simply half of a T251 GP therefore pure Columbo. [This is what I have in my replica] there were some new parts required obviously as the T 251 had timing gears between the blocks and the T252 [MK 1] has a timing chain at the front.but essentially half of the T251 motor. Then Columbo left and Edouard Bertrand took over and as there was opposition at the factory to the hairpin valvesprings he designed a modified head to fit on to colombos bottom end.This retained the timing chain at the front but now with coil valvesprings.This is the T252 MK2A.For various reasons this was not a sucess and so he carried on to make a new block to go with his head.This time the head was turned 180 degrees and the timing chain went to the rear of the engine.This engine is the T252 MK2B.The last development was the T253.Amazingly this has Columbos hairpin valvesprings and roller followers,and is a reversion to the Columbo original version.There are however some significant changes.The head is no longer symetrique.The inlet side is now siamised,1 into four,cast into the head, [why ???] and there is an integral chain cover at the front.My T253 head is stamped 1 and has cast on" T 253 mot 1."

I suspect that you are refering to the body that Uwe Hucke had made for his T102.He then decided that he did not like it and sold it.

Pictures I received from Lazarus:

http://www.bugattibuilder.com/photo/thumbnails.php?album=2067

Too much in a hurry now to post them directly in the forum. If someone else likes to do that, feel free.

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A picture of the engine type-102



more pictures see Bugatti models by gerrit Bus

Bugatti type 253 prototype

This thread has provided me with loads of information I was completely unaware of, but I think what most surprise me is how wrong my perception of Bugatti during the 1940's & 50's was. I always assumed that if the death of Jean wasn't the end, then Ettore's death certainly was. But one thing I tell you, for a dead company there sure was a lot of activity going on!

Perhaps someone can explain something that confuse me no end. Of all these fascinating and varied designs being worked on, how come the only Type to be put on sale (in very limited numbers) was the T101? In any event, thank you for this whole thread, I have learned so much.

I think I am beginning to understand why contributors like Lazarus can get a little frustrated with Hugh Conway's writing - he had little to no interest in this whole era. Actually I get the impression that Hugh was most interested in the pre-1934 period. He's still my hero though.

With Much Gratitude
Johan