As you are aware this period of Bugatti history has always fascinated me.I bought the remains of the Facel Vega company in 1981 and got to know M.Paul Badre very well.Over dinner one evening he told me that as head of SFERMA [societe [de] fabrications et reparartions aeronautique ] He had been made boss of Facel after the bankruptcy.Facel was owned by Hispano,Sud Aviation,and mobile oil france.In 1963 he was telephoned by the director of Hispano to say that Hispano had bought Bugatti and that he was to get along to Molsheim and study the various 1500cc motors there for possible use in the facellia.He must have been astonished to discover the following; T73/73a/73b1500cc/1600cc,or1750cc, /73c/T102/T252/T252 MK2a/T252 MK2b/T253.All of which I believe had been test run and none of which had been sold to the public ! Paul made it quite clear to me that at that time Hispano had made NO POSITIVE DECISION TO ABANDON CAR WORK AT MOLSHEIM.To a large degree this decision rested with Paul Badre and had he chosen the T252 motor for example then Hispano would have been happy for production of this motor to commence for use by Facel.Had this happened then I imagine that Hispano engineers could have sorted out any problems with the design and Bugatti could have had a growing envolvement with the Facel designs.The two companies complimented each other very well.Facel had no engineering pretensions at all being simply coachbuilders [but quite good ones] And Bugatti had some excellent engineering facilities and a workforce endowed with Ettores fine standards of workmanship.Perhaps the T451 motor could have ended up in the Facel XII ? Paul was as he told me somewhat confused by the large number of different designs of motor and was also scared to become involved in another untried motor with no guarentees as to its long term reliability.He went therefore to Sweden and arranged to buy the Volvo B18 motor for the Facellia which was renamed Facel III.A lost opportunity if ever there was one.Sadly Paul did not live to see my own version of this "might have been"

[quote="Johan Buchner"]This thread has provided me with loads of information I was completely unaware of, but I think what most surprise me is how wrong my perception of Bugatti during the 1940's & 50's was. I always assumed that if the death of Jean wasn't the end, then Ettore's death certainly was. But one thing I tell you, for a dead company there sure was a lot of activity going on!

Perhaps someone can explain something that confuse me no end. Of all these fascinating and varied designs being worked on, how come the only Type to be put on sale (in very limited numbers) was the T101? In any event, thank you for this whole thread, I have learned so much.

I think I am beginning to understand why contributors like Lazarus can get a little frustrated with Hugh Conway's writing - he had little to no interest in this whole era. Actually I get the impression that Hugh was most interested in the pre-1934 period. He's still my hero though.
It is not difficult to work out why the T101 was the only car sold after the war ! The design was T57,Most of the parts were in stock,and no expensive changes or pattern equipement were required.Imagine the difficulty that any designer at the Bugatti factory would have had.Every time he came up with something new someone [Roland ?] would say " My father would not have done it like that ! Impossible.

Well, there was another problem; materials: Only selected companies could use the scarce materials available. So it was far easier to develop a new model, but to really make a production run was much more difficult. These early post-war circumstances are difficult to imagine nowadays.

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Roland Bugatti was generally considered to be Ettore's idiot child, responsible for ruining the company. Then Borgeson painted a much more vividly complex portrait of him, the young age at which he became head of the Bugatti clan, his lack of formal education and experience versus his innate intelligence, the infighting within the family, and, so I believe, the corruption of certain key players within the firm - Matthews accused Pierre Marco of stealing money from the company.

In light of the new information provided by Lazarus I wonder how he rates Roland's role in the final days of Bugatti? He is beginning to seem a rather tragic figure to me.

Thanks
Johan

One of the problems was that there were 2 sides in the family, Ettore's old and new family. Roland was probably more the victim than the cause of the trouble.

Some more info on post war 4-cylinders:

http://www.bugattirevue.com/revue15/four.htm
http://www.bugattirevue.com/revue16/four-2.htm
http://www.bugattipage.com/2003news.htm#T125

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I was not there at the time.I never met Roland Bugatti,and only know what has been written.I therefore have no opinion of Roland,although I am envious of Borgeson 's friendship with him.More and better information could have been teased out of Roland had the questioner asked the right questions.Which suggests that borgeson did not have all the answers himself.He did make mistakes in the AQ article re T252.

What a wealth of information! I never supposed that so many details would arise when I suggested to begin this topic. Thanks to everybody, specially to Lazarus (what a great Bugattiste you are) and to Jaap.

The problem with the information on post war types, as Johan has very well said, is that Conway did not consider them as real Bugattis since most of them were created after his death; and have remained neglected. But now, I understand much clearly the story of types 252, 253 and 451.

I still have some doubts about the other types. I had read that when the T73 was introduced in the Paris show of 1947 it still needed much development. Seeing how many variants of this type were designed, I think that actually it was much closer to be put into production than what has been told. My personal opinion is that the real reason to not produce this car could be the need of building all the tooling to produce this completely new type and the shortage of materials that Jaap suggested. I would like to believe that if this type would had been produced it could have been for Bugatti what the Dyna was for Panhard in the post war years. Lazarus, do you think that the design of the T73 was so far of being finished?

About the T102, it had the advantage of being half the engine of the T57, therefore it would have been easier and cheaper to begin its production. I understand that the factory produced as its first post war car the T101, which was basically the T57. But the high taxes that the French Government imposed in those years to the luxury cars made almost impossible to sell this kind of cars. However, the T102 would not have suffered so high taxes and would have been sold better. Besides it had independent front suspension, unlike the T101. The T102 could have been a good chance to reintroduce Bugatti in the production of cars. It seems that Uwe Hucke had a T102. Was this car complete? If he sold the body, did he place a new body on it or this car remains as a chassis? Has someone seen this T102?

What continues being a mistery is the T125. It is the "lost link" between the pre war designs and the more modern designs by Colombo. In the Bugatti Page its capacity is 1.216 cc (4 cyl.), in the wiki its capacity is 2.432 cc (8 cyl.); I suppose that the last figures are a mistake.

It seems clear now that the T252 designed by Colombo was a good car and that the problems came when he left the factory. But I have also read that the company made a research in the market of the 1.500 cc, small sports cars and the conclusion was that at that moment there were too many small companies producing that kind of cars, with a low profitability; therefore the next step was to design a bigger car, the V12 T451. Yes, I would also have liked to see the T252 and 451, developed by Colombo, fitted in Facel cars. The history would had been different.

A last question: What is the T272 which appears in the list of types in the wiki?

The T73 was of course built so all necessary wooden patterns were made.The problem here was the mistaken belief that an engine suitable for a postwar GP car could also be used in a roadcar,It was not suitable and various problems led to the abandonment [with ettores death ] of the T73 motor and the continuing design by his merry men of various new designs all under the T73 type heading.T73 a and b.The T 73 design as Hugh knew all too well had nothing really new and good about it,and we come here to another interesting thing.France seemed to lose a generation of engineers after 1940.The combatants forged ahead with special fuels,special metals and techniques,all essential to win the war and France made gazogens and tried to survive under a frightful horror.There simply was no one who had the up to date knowledge to design modern engines.Except Columbo,All of Bugattis old engineers were too bound up in Ettore's ideas which in a lot of cases were nonsense.[suspension by solid beam axles etc] Another problem of the T73 was its Ettore designed automatic gearbox which was enormous and never worked properly.The back axle [diff] was too small like a brescia and would not have lasted long on the road.Incidently I have heard many times that the T102 was half of a T 101 motor.It really is very different.I have seen Huckes example.I dont know far Jens has progressed since his father died.

Thanks again, Lazarus. You are a real gentleman. The matter on the T73 is much clearer now.

Is anybody interested in a half share in this fascinating project? Now that the original Bugatti wooden patterns have turned up there is a real chance to finish what was the most stunning and advanced car ever built at molsheim.The rolling chassis is ready for the engine.The two de dion axles are mounted as is the steering.Two small but serious design defects have been remedied on the chassis/suspension.I expect that the resulting car will prove very exciting indeed.

Check this WIKI page:

http://www.bugattibuilder.com/wiki/inde ... is_by_type

I will try and fill the data for the postwar types, now most are without any data... Feel free to alter and add data.

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These original patterns, were they in the Malmerspach collection??

Sorry to say, the project really seems interesting, but I have neither the space nor the time nor the money to embark on such a project....

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Indeed, tempting, but lack of time, space and funds prevent me from jumping in. However, if there is anything I could possibly do, you have my support.

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